This Is What’s Longed For (w/Zabi)

Zuben Zabi, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Zuben.

That our names are this way tells me the universe has a sense of humor.

[laughter]

So, we were introduced by our mutual friend Corey up in Berkeley. I came to one of the meetings you were holding up there and um I was just like, “Oh, yeah,

there’s a resonance.” And Corey was like, “Zuben, Zabi, Zuben, Zabi.” I was like, “Yeah, this just we should just talk.” Yeah. So, here we are.

Nice. Nice. Thanks for having me, man.

Oh, it’s a pleasure, man. So, I you know, you’re there’s the story of Zabi, like what what happened apparently in

the story, and then there’s this, which is really all there is. But like, in this story, I thought was so interesting. Like, you were, you know,

this Afghany kid doing your thing, getting into trouble, doing all the things that we do, and generally miserable. Yeah.

[laughter]

Yeah. Yeah. Underlying sense of something’s not right.

From from how long from a little kid. Yeah. As long as I can remember. Five.

Five years old. Yeah. What was wrong? Can’t put your finger on it. Yeah.

Ah. I know exactly what you’re saying.

Like Morpheus said it like there’s like a splinter in your mind, right? Yeah.

And I think for you it was like you were asking your mom like how is it that we believe in this god and they believe in that god like someone’s not right.

How are we right and they’re wrong and then they must feel like they’re right and everyone else is wrong. This doesn’t make sense.

[laughter]

So you dared as a child to use logic.

Yeah. So that that sense of unease like how did that show up later as you got older? with discontent, unease um through addiction.

Ah yeah. So it was a lot of drinking and drugs. Yeah. Yeah. All of that. Yeah.

Yeah. All through your youth and everything. Yeah. It started kind of late actually. Oh really? Yeah. Um 18.

Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah.

High school I was just quiet and then all the partying started after so it was kind of different. Yeah. Wow.

Yeah. And uh that’s so you were a late start, but what I found like because I didn’t do anything in in high school and then I went to Berkeley. Yeah.

And it kind of went off the rails a little bit. Yeah.

And uh it can actually be a little more um crazy actually when it starts later. Yeah. Yeah. Intense. Yeah.

Yeah. Did it feel like you were trying to escape something or numb something or how how did it show up? Numb escape all of it. Fill a hole.

Fill a hole. a hole that can’t be filled.

[laughter]

See, we can laugh about it because it’s seen now as totally absurd that this is something that can never be fixed.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s not broken. It’s not broken. Yeah. It’s not even what you can think it is. This hole, this supposed hole. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, what would you call, if you had something to say about it, what would you call the hole? Like, how would you label it even though it’s not labelable? The whole

wholeness unconditional love I mean aliveness

isness thisness

[laughter]

[snorts]

I don’t know that just comes up

[laughter]

yeah does mean anything this doesn’t mean nothing means anything yeah so so the lack the feeling of a hole

with an h instead of a hole with a wh What is that? Do you remember what that’s like?

It was like a hole here that felt that just needed to be filled through substances or

alcohol and then it’ll get a relief for a minute or so. Well, not a little more than a minute, but then it would have to be kept up.

Ah, yeah.

And it was just the game of, you know, up and down, up and down. That’s the life of that personal energy. Up and down.

It loves that [ __ ] It says it doesn’t, but it does.

[laughter]

That’s key. It says it doesn’t.

Yeah. It’ll deny it. No, no, no. I’m looking for contentment, for peace, for equinimity. [ __ ] [ __ ] Call [ __ ] on it.

What is that personal energy? [laughter] What is it? What is seeking energy?

Ah, yeah. It just wants more more. It’s feeding. It’s constantly feed me. Feed me. That’s all it is.

It’s constantly feeding on everything.

The appearance, it just wants more. It’s Yeah.

And then there’s like a here it felt like claws of trying to hold on to Yeah.

trying to have the appearance, own it, own everything for itself, possess everything. Cuz it feels like if it gets enough, then it’ll be whole.

No, it’s like a bucket with a hole in the bottom. You can put all you want in there. It just goes right right out.

Yeah. [laughter] And it wants meaning. Meaning, purpose. Yeah.

Yeah. A story, meaning, purpose, a direction, progress, attainment. Yeah. Yeah.

So, it either wants stuff, numbing, a buzz, good feeling, sex, drugs, rock and roll, all that.

Yeah. And then if it runs into non-duality, it wants no me.

Wants no me. So that was the next thing I was going to say. [laughter] If it hits spirituality, it wants awakening, liberation.

It wants the end of its suffering, but it wants it on its terms. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Will it ever get it? No. No. Yeah. No. Yeah.

Yeah. [laughter] And this is this is the this is the [ __ ] joke, isn’t it? So there’s so many people selling you enlightenment. Yeah.

Do this, do that, do this, practice, inquire in this way. Suffering. That’s suffering. Suffering. Sounds torturous.

Yeah. You never did that, did you? So, how did it you have all this emptiness, you’re filling it with substances, with cars and girls and whatever else is going on.

How did it show up for you then? That that the realization that there was never that was never the case.

How did that show up without all the spiritual seeking?

Well, the spiritual seeking popped up in the YouTube algorithm for a little bit.

See [ __ ] this is why you watch YouTube. So that you watch me, you get really like, “Oh [laughter] god, I want whatever that bald man has,” which is not a thing.

And then you start seeking.

Well, the story went, you know, besides it was money, cars, girls, you know, drugs, alcohol, and then all of a sudden when it was being sober for like a week,

it was a question came up like, is this what this is? We go to work, we get money, go to sleep, wake up, go back to

work, and then go to sleep, wake up, and then die eventually. Like, what is this? That came up being well, this was sober.

And it was a sense that the alcohol, the drugs is not the problem. There’s a sense that there’s something underneath, a restlessness, a discontent, something

that is causing the alcohol and drugs and all the need. So then the question on Google or YouTube was what’s the

point of life? [laughter] I remember searching that. You searched that directly? Yeah, directly. Wow. How old were you then? Roughly. Uh this was 2019.

2019. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

So the I don’t know like 29 I think right before 30 cuz it was like the crisis of hitting 30.

Yeah. That that [laughter] early middle age crisis. Yeah. I had that. Yeah.

Wow. And so you literally search that. And it’s funny because the last guy that was on sitting where you are was last week.

Uh Richishy, he’s a cardiologist. Same same thing.

Emptiness, seeking to fill it with accomplishment in his case. And alcohol was the numbing thing.

Yeah. And he really hit the bottom where he there was self harm and all that like at the intent and Yeah. And that kind of what collapsed it. So you went on

YouTube in your sober moment. You were like, “What is this about?” And then what happened? Uh what popped up was this a few people um this guy named Leo Gura.

Oh I know Leo. I know of him. Yeah I saw his videos too. At that time I was seeking Yeah. bald guy like me. Yeah.

And all the intellectual stuff came up like wow this is kind of fascinating. I was just into partying and that there was this image of Zabi that needed to be

maintained. This stuff never was a part of the image questioning stuff or you know life or anything like that.

Yeah. So philosophy.

Yeah. Philosophy was never a part of the image. So it was a little different for this to come up. And then also Allan Watts.

Oh, Allan’s amazing. Yeah, Alan. Yeah.

And with that, I had no idea what he was saying. And when he was describing duality, I’m like, “What?” Yeah, exactly. That’s what this is. What do you What is What do you mean? Like, I

was just so confused with it didn’t make sense. But I just listened to it. It was like a resonance with something. Wow.

And then what came after was Muji and uh Rupert Spear Eartole. I got the book,

The Power of Now. So, this was kind of involved in it, but I would say it lasted like two months.

So, only Okay. Because I was gonna say everything you said that happened here, but it took years. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. [ __ ] Total [ __ ] It took years of me going through that going, “Oh, Leo, Leo

did all this 5met and is so smart and is talking about the nature of God consciousness and all this.” And then Rert’s like everything is consciousness

arising as the mind and and and Muji’s like it’s the beloved showing up as this now kiss my feet.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course Ehart, right? There’s no way about but now the aliveness of the body and I was like damn this is a whole cast of characters I can really the mind could

really get behind. The seeking mind could really get behind those guys. Yeah. But only two months. Yeah. Jim Newman popped up. Oh no.

In the midst of that the end of the end of that. Yeah. Jim Newman.

Yeah. And it was kind of this couldn’t differentiate between Muji, Ehart, Rupert, and Jim. It thought it was the same in the beginning.

Ah.

For very but very quickly it was realized that it’s not. Ah.

And then that’s when all the spiritual stuff dropped.

Wow. You’re so lucky. [laughter] I I love how telling someone who’s like Yeah. alcohol, drugs, misery for most of his adult life. You’re so lucky.

[laughter]

It’s only two years of two months of spiritual seeking on YouTube.

Yeah, cuz the seeking here was with all other stuff. It was not spiritual. That makes sense. It’s all the same. Yeah. Say that again.

It’s all the same. It’s all the same. Drugs. Yeah.

So, you don’t have to be a spiritual seeker to suffer through seeking. It’s the nature of the personal energy. Yeah.

It is always trying to fill that hole. I think of that character. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen Spirited Away, that cartoon. It’s this Japanese cartoon and there’s a character on there called

Noace who’s this um like black demon thing that puts everything in its mouth and is never satisfied. And that’s what it feels like.

Yeah. Yeah. Filling that emptiness. That’s perceived emptiness. Yeah. Yeah.

Ah. So Jim Newman, for people who don’t know, you can just go look at his stuff. He’s very direct. There’s nobody here doing anything.

There’s nothing you can do. This is an appearance. You’re an appearance. It’s it’s it cuts the legs off of the seeker.

There’s no one. No one.

Yeah. [laughter] And the mind hears that and goes, “Wait, what?” It’s like when you said when they talked about duality, you were like, “Yeah,

that’s how it is.” Mhm. That’s what the world is. Mhm.

The mind can’t see anything other than that.

But there was a resonance. So people ask what’s hearing the the message behind the words and I don’t know. I say nothing.

Nothing. Nothing. Yeah. Yeah.

Indescribable. It can’t you can’t put a finger on it. But something here is

[laughter]

Yeah. Just make you giggle for a smile on your face. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Or from the mind standpoint, it put a horror struck like no the void. Oh my god, the end of me. Yeah.

It’s really funny. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It becomes this big At least here the story was a dying process. It seemed that way and then it was a this was like a drama

queen though. So it was like crying every day I’m dying you know. But honest I mean to be fair there was um energetic

holdings of basically the character of Zabi the the story built up over time and then it

deconstructed in like the opposite order. It just broke apart and it felt like death because it is death of that energy, death of you, the person.

Yeah.

It’s [clears throat] man, it’s like it’s like that here. It took a long time though here. It was months and years of that deconstruction and you don’t

The mind can’t really make sense of it as it’s going. It just feels like a kind of a torturous letting go or a falling away or a grieving. So much grief,

tears, all that. And then going through all the relationships and all the life stuff, it’s showing you again and again, hey, what about this? You believe this,

don’t you? Oh, you let go of this belief, but you didn’t do it. The belief fell away, but what about this? You still think this?

Yeah. For me, a lot of it came down to all well, it was all kinds of stuff, but some of the last things to fall were, oh, I’m a guy on YouTube that does things that help people.

Like, that was nonsense. I was like, that had to be seen through. Like, that I’m not doing anything. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No one’s ever done anything even ever.

Even if there’s that experience of being someone on a path moving through time and space, that’s not happening.

It’s already not happening. [laughter] This is all of it.

[laughter]

Yeah. And that’s so unsatisfying for someone that’s trying to understand something cuz the so-called message and

quotes because there isn’t really a message when it comes down to it. It gives nothing.

[laughter]

Yeah. It sells a lot of retreats and a lot a lot of clicks. Yeah. You see the general views on my videos have gone to

like nil because I’m telling people you were not Yeah. Yeah.

And the thing is there’s no you know if I’m being honest when I started this realization started happening apparently like

there was still that those little bits of belief and identity that were like I’m the one who can share this

because on account of my ability to communicate and my platform that I’ve built over these years and all of it happened for a reason. The whole thing

was happening so that I could wake up and share this. And then when that started dying, then I was very direct cuz you can’t help it.

So why even do it? Because I’m doing it.

[laughter]

That’s it. Why do you do it? Why do you talk about it?

Total mystery. Both of us have other lives that we just do our thing.

[laughter]

Then it shows up like this. Yeah.

Yeah. sitting talking seeing

no one’s seeing that’s the the person feels like it’s behind the eyes looking out and seeing objects that’s not

happening they’re just seeing you can’t say we’re seeing begins or ends it’s the infinite seeing absolute

[snorts] absolute is relative it’s the same not an absolute somewhere else. There’s not a God somewhere else. This is that.

This is that.

[laughter]

Oh, no. Please, not the void. This is the void. [laughter] This is the This is nothing as everything. And not a single one of

those words actually touches what that can’t say it. Yeah. And it is the words at the same time. It’s the words too. It’s the delusion too.

That’s the other thing. You can’t even exclude.

You can’t say, “Well, they’re a person and I’m not a person.” What does that It doesn’t even make sense. Nobody’s anything. There’s nothing.

There are no people. [laughter] And people watching are like, “Well, I’m a person.

There’s bodies, apparently.” Yeah. Yeah. There’s no one in them.

It’s impossible. How can there be a little little man inside a little woman or whatever pulling the strings making

things happen with his free will and choice? It’s [ __ ]

[snorts]

It’s [ __ ] Even logically, you can kind of but but you can’t do anything with that information. I mean, people say there’s no free will all the time, scientists

and all that, but then trying to what are you going to do with that?

So, it’s funny. It’s really funny cuz for people that are very intellectually

wired, that body is intellectually inclined, that message conceptually can be understood at fine and fine levels. Like

Sam Harris was the one who introduced me to this idea that there’s no free will.

And I was like, yeah, logically that makes total self.

And then he said, there’s no self because there’s no center of self. So where would the self be?

Oh yeah, that logically makes total sense. And yet who’s feeling that? a personal energy that owns this knowledge about there’s no self.

And it could talk eloquently about it. Yeah. Yeah.

But it’s still feeling as though there’s a hole here that’s filled by knowledge. Mhm. Yeah. This is not that. No.

Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah.

It’s all inclusive. Anything that’s arising is that. All of it. It can’t be not that.

whatever thought, whatever feeling, pain, all of it. And that is what’s longed for.

It’s [snorts] just when there’s an energy that owns what’s happening, my pain, my thoughts, my feelings, it

changes it. It turns it into it puts it in a story, in a context that’s going somewhere,

[laughter]

which is also this radiance showing up as a story going somewhere. But boy, it doesn’t feel it feels like what you described your youth to feel like in my youth. Something’s wrong.

Yeah.

And so you say this language and I’ve heard others use this language like Jim and maybe Tony. This is what’s longed for.

Oh yeah. This is what’s longed for.

Yeah. So deeply.

Deeply. Not what’s wanted. What’s longed for? Like the deepest desire. It’s for the end of seeking. It’s not to get.

It’s for the end of the need for something else.

Oh, [snorts] so this whole thing’s like backwards it for the person that’s trying to get something. It’s not in its world.

Yeah. But something can hear this like we were saying earlier and it’s not the person. Something resonates with this and it’s openness

that seems to do it. It has nothing to do with that energy with that separate energy which is also not separate but there is there could be openness.

Yeah.

So I see it show up in people and in myself as they’re longing for the end of suffering. They know something’s wrong.

They go on a spiritual journey. They find a guru, a teacher, a YouTuber.

They do all the things that YouTuber says. they find they’re still not feeling better and they’re doing more things. Maybe if I outrun this, out work

this and then they’ll message me and say, “I saw a video where you said there’s nothing you can do.” Mhm. Can you please tell me more about that?

Because I’m miserable. Like I’m doing everything and I’m angry.

I’m more upset. I feel like I’ll not I’m not good enough to actually have this freedom. Yeah.

And you can feel the longing for what’s right here.

Yeah. The relaxation of that fill this hole. Yeah. Yeah.

And the the problem with spirituality is it continues that seeking apparatus.

Yeah. It Yeah. It just feeds that energy.

Yeah. The no face. It just keeps feeding. Yeah. The monster. Yeah. Which is not a monster. It’s this.

Yeah. [laughter] it is when that’s really seen. So, I’ll tell you some of the some of the more subtle threads of holding here were

um a rejection of the occasional delusive energy or thought that arose that was

like the feeling would come up. Oh, that’s that’s not okay to have that because it’s not this.

And then that even was oh no, it’s this too. Yeah. So then it’s like [ __ ] you neighbor. Cut your tree down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The person says, “No, I can’t say that. I have to be pure or I have to be whatever.” Loving.

Loving.

[ __ ]

Purpose, meaning, goodness, all of it. Story. Yeah.

That the mind tells to make itself feel okay. Mhm.

But it can never feel okay because it’s operating as a misunderstanding.

Yeah. The whole base of it is misunderstanding. Yeah. And it’s an energetic misunderstanding. Say, say that again. Elaborate on that because people think it’s all thought.

Oh, no. I know. I hear that a lot. Yeah.

It’s not thought. No, thoughts are just thought. Thoughts are not a problem.

It’s a it’s an embodied cellular misunderstanding. Yeah. Yeah.

And then I guess you can say maybe thoughts come out of that like if there’s a feeling of restrictedness, you

know, there could be thoughts reflecting on that feeling. And but the thought itself is not there. There’s a underlying restrictiveness, attention. Yeah.

Ah. [sighs] So, see this is something that it took me a long time because I was I was I I

had felt and I was led to believe by many speakers actually in ways that I was reading things that this was a misapprehension.

Thought was the problem. And if we just disidentify from thought, how you do that, I don’t know. That sounds good to the person.

Sounds really good. It’s like, “Oh, I can do something. I can just stop believing that I’m a thought.” But then energetically,

I still feel contracted, separate, me. Mhm.

And it’s not just the sense that there’s someone behind the eyes, although that is part of it. Like there’s this weird constellation of I’m here, world is out there.

Some of it’s the visual, but it’s very energetic. Mhm.

So when it stops, it was seen that it was never very compelling.

Yeah. It was just, oh, how did Oh, and then it can it can be there again. Like, oh, there it is. Oh, yeah. That feels like me.

And then for here, it would kind of go back and forth. It was interesting. Yeah. Very energetic. Mhm. Yeah.

But you I couldn’t do anything about it. Yeah. There’s no practice. Mhm. Yeah.

Doesn’t make sense. How can practice how could the person wants to get rid of itself? That’s it’s just continuation of the dream.

Yeah. It keeps keeps it going actually. Yeah.

But then so the people would ask, well then this is pointless for you to open your mouth about this because there’s nothing you’re telling me you have you

this is how the mind hears it. You have something that I can’t have because I can’t do it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that’s why this message, if you want to call a message, is not for someone. It’s not speaking to anyone.

[laughter]

If it’s heard, it’s heard. Yeah. There’s no energy here wanting anyone to hear it.

If it’s heard, it’s heard.

Yeah. There’s no intention here for anything.

Yeah, [laughter] it something popped up that just said specialness,

right? Like the mind wants to turn that into specialness. Well, maybe I’m the special one who will not hear it. Yeah. And wake up. Yeah. I can’t stop.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. Ah.

[laughter]

[snorts] Oh.

[laughter]

Yeah. here. There was a still a lot of laughter about it bec because it’s just seen that wow we really I I

fell for this thing hook line and sinker and it couldn’t have been otherwise like the whole separation Mhm.

and the whole seeking Yeah. like trying to self-improve. Yeah. Polish this character.

And then when that’s kind of seen that like what the question drops. You can’t even ask the question.

Mhm. [clears throat] Yeah. It turned out that the questioner was an illusion. So nothing’s really ever answered.

There’s no answers here. Yeah. There’s no answer. Mhm. Yeah.

Because there’s no the question just doesn’t even make sense. It doesn’t arise.

Yeah. It comes from that misunderstanding. The base question, you know, that I’m real.

I’m in time space. Something’s happening to me and I’ll find the solution. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah.

That whole basis is just false.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then you could say, well, what is actually what is

[laughter]

Yeah. Here it is. Yeah.

The unknowability of this is is just love.

It’s love. It’s M yeah knowing seems to deaden the

appearance makes it Knowing is the solidity of everything. It’s only real

and then the aliveness of everything seems to be missing.

So the person goes on to search trying to find the aliveness that’s already everything. Where’s the Disney magic I had when I was young? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s like childlike.

Yeah. Very childlike wonder. Very. Yeah. Yeah.

And it’s very It’s funny. You You can’t say it’s silent. You can’t say it’s loud. It’s all of it. The silence is the

sound. The sound. And these are just words and it just becomes inexplicable. Yeah.

And it also is that mundane daily getting your [ __ ] done. Mhm. Going doing your job. Yeah.

ordinary ordinary stuff. Hanging out with friends, nothing changes in that sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s like nothing changes, but everything changes. But you can’t really say the every Yeah. It’s unspeakable. Unspeakable.

Mhm.

I can say there’s some things that that have noticed that have been noticed here that are gone.

So they’re only noticed when I look, hey, what happened to the little voice in my head that used to say you’re a piece of [ __ ] and are not good enough and so on? It start it would arise I

think for a while even after this stuff apparently and then it just was seen as like just appearance

and it never had a root anymore cuz the whole concept the whole belief energetically of unworthiness

dropped through the bottom of that there’s no worthiness either. So yeah.

Yeah. Then there’s just so suddenly you start looking and in thought okay does does that negative

voice show up anymore and it it it isn’t or the belief that I have a trajectory

and a purpose I felt like that was so essential. How do you live without that? It’s gone. It’s not there.

There’s just this this is this is everything. Yeah. It’s crazy.

Yeah. Yeah. The the person needs meaning and purpose.

Yeah, it’s it’s looking for survival.

It’s just on a it’s a constant movement just trying to survive uh emotionally survive, energetically survive.

And this is just saying that’s not needed. Yeah. That is the suffering. Yeah.

[laughter]

In a sense when I I may have mentioned this when we sat in Berkeley.

Mhm. It’s a it’s a space where permission is given for that to be I like that permission like you have permission.

You don’t have to even put on an like naturally with in social situations still there’s like an assuming of the kind of role or the confirmation of the

person that thinks they’re a person is interacting with other persons and has a story about their future and their past and can speak fluently about it.

But there it’s there’s nothing going on inside that actually makes that real. M.

But then going in a space where that’s it’s you don’t have to do that.

[laughter]

It feels like again like home. Yeah. That nothing’s needed. Nothing’s needed. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. This is home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is home.

Mhm.

You know, the first time I started interacting with people who’ve like yourself who this is understood and again the very

words I’m saying don’t make sense because there’s nobody I’m interacting with that has that had that realization

but it felt like that feeling of home was almost dependent on being in their proximity.

Oh yeah, I know what you’re talking about.

You know what I mean? Cuz for that energy of me, it’s like I feel it, the resonance.

But it only happens when I’m around this person.

It was like that with this and Jim. It’s like I needed to be I wanted to be around Jim. I think if I could be around him every day, I would. I’d be okay. Yeah.

It felt like he had something. Yeah.

Oh, and that is the subtlest kind of like, oh, because when it’s not there, you feel the contrast of like, oh, this is what it was like

before. I don’t want this anymore. Like, this is terrible. And of course it has nothing to do with that. Yeah. Cuz this is home. This is home. Yeah.

Yeah.

Meeting out of the meeting, whatever is happening, doesn’t whatever it is. Yeah.

For me, it was like wife, kids, life, house. No, it came up like as this was unraveling. No, I don’t want any of it.

I want to run away.

I want to just be with, you know, be as presence. All this nonsense. All this nonsense. But it was felt that way. And it had to it had to

be kind of ground through and released cuz in a sense the opposite belief was the family and the kids and the wife make me safe and whole and purposeful.

So all of it had to relax before now there’s just a sitting like oh kids wife house. [laughter] Yeah. Perfect. Home. All of it. Home.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah man.

I tell you, it’s just like drinking water.

Yeah, drinking water. Almost dropped the cap.

Oh man, dropping the cap. That’s it’s it’s we I will say the mind loves to complexify everything.

So there’ll be all kinds of comments and all kinds of and I did this all the time.

Well, you see, consciousness is a unity that shows up as this. And of course, when we’re going through our chakras and

the multiple lives and this and that, it’s like, bro, that’s beautiful. There’s also this this. Mhm.

There’s nowhere to go. The person misses the simplicity. That’s what’s long for. Yeah. Mhm.

Yeah. Not all that fantas fantasy stuff, right? Yeah.

And the beautiful thing is the fantasy stuff can arise and it’s just like, yeah, okay, cool. Mhm.

Past lives sounds great. It’s not even rejected. Yeah.

Although rejection can arise. So then it’s like [ __ ] that. Mhm. And that’s okay.

Yeah. Cuz there’s only what arises like this conversation. This is everything. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

And then afterwards it’ll be the image on YouTube or the audio on the podcast will be everything that’s arising. Yeah.

Yeah. If this is being watched, seen that’s all there is.

Yeah. By the three people. [laughter] We’ll watch it and we’ll smash that like button, comment, [laughter]

turn your notification bell on, and follow Zombie Non-duality on YouTube.

[laughter]

See what I did there? Yeah.

Yeah. And you So, you’ve been Okay, wait. So I think because people are going to be curious because the mind wants a story. So let’s let’s let’s let’s give them a story.

Oh lord.

You you two months of that you find Jim Mhm.

And Jim is teaching you through YouTube teaching you. Yeah. [laughter] That’s the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Like wait what?

Like Jim is talking. Jim is Jimming and Zabi Zabiing. What is what does Zabi Zabiing

look like in that apparent time when this was happening?

I just remember not knowing what he was talking about at all. It was just like confusion.

But I couldn’t stop watching, you know, it was just like hours and hours and hours. This all everything that this did

had a non-duality video on like throughout the day, whatever was happening. And it seemed that um there

was an unraveling that was going on. I called it a dying at the time. Yeah.

Uh but I mean none of that is required.

It’s it plays out differently seemingly for different bodies. Like it doesn’t have to be that way, you know? Like I’ve

known people who’ve never even heard of a non-duality. Somehow this has happened and then they watched a video after. They’re like, “Oh, that was that.” Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. There’s no process cuz a process can’t result in this. Yeah.

It’s hard to have causality when there’s no time except as an appearance.

So in a dream there’s causality, but in this nothing causes anything. Yeah.

Yeah. Even trying to say a story, it’s just can’t cuz nothing led to this.

Not really. Yeah.

[laughter]

So you would sit eating popcorn watching non-duality videos or drinking maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I just remember it wasn’t nice. It didn’t feel nice. It was a lot of pain. Mhm. Yeah.

Mhm. [laughter] Yeah.

Yeah. But then something was also there was like a openness.

Mhm. And even with all the crazy [ __ ] that seemed to happen, there was still a sense of it’s okay.

Yeah. Very familiar. Yeah.

And like you said, it’s different for every apparent body.

So many different stories. My wife’s was so different. Like it’s unrecognizably different. And yet it’s exactly the the understanding is

the same. The flavor may be a little different. and how they might talk or not talk about it. Mhm.

Like my wife’s like, “Why do you even talk about this?” Yeah. Yeah.

It’s like, I don’t know. This is why it happens. Just happens. Yeah. Yeah. It’s kind of fun, too, for me.

Yeah. It’s kind of like, oh, what’s another way to say the unsayable? What’s Yeah. No, it is fun. Yeah.

Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. That’s cool.

Yeah. It’s kind of like Yeah.

What what I will say is I don’t it doesn’t happen here I think to wake anybody up

or to feel like I’m an authority on this cuz that just is absurd. Mhm. Yeah.

It’s funny waking up. I never like that here. I use I was like it’s more like a sleepening awake. [laughter] A sleepening. Ah yeah.

You mean that personal energy kind of goes to sleep or Yeah. or something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s all words, so none of it’s going to really land properly. Yeah. Yeah. It’s Yeah. The awakening thing, it still feels like it’s a thing you’re trying to

do. Like, let me wake up. I’m in a dream. Let me wake up.

The dream is the awakening. The dream is this. This is all this stop. But you can’t. Yeah.

So, it is a kind of open relaxation that seemingly happens. But even that and it’s not doesn’t feel relaxing.

Like you said, it feels like death or dismemberment like being torn apart. Yeah.

Or just just general all the misery you were avoiding feeling now can’t be avoided anymore. Yeah. It all comes up.

Yeah.

Yeah. Seems to Yeah.

So this is backwards. This is not what Zombie signed up for. Yeah. Zeven either. Yeah. Zeven wanted freedom from suffering.

Yeah. Yeah.

And instead he got more [laughter] suffering. Yeah. Yeah.

And even now it’s like there’s nothing here to celebrate anything that has changed apparently. It’s just oh it’s always been this.

Yeah.

It’s seen as like it’s absurd that there was anything that woke up or progress that there are any awake beings. Yeah. It’s ridiculous. It’s ridiculous. Yeah.

And yet people talk like this. Yeah.

And then other people are feeling inadequate. Mhm.

And it just perpetuates. It’s like the delusion itself, that energy is so good at self-perpetuating that it creates

entire religions and commune structures and and social structures that perpetuate

through very subtle and higher and higher uh versions of like um uh seeking. Mhm.

So like ah you know I will attain no self. I will attain anata for [laughter] me and me alone.

Oh man. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean it’s it’s it’s mechanism. I can’t do nothing but seek. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s quite innocent actually. It is innocent. It’s all innocent.

rather adorable if if it didn’t and and I can’t even really put a value on it because I think there’s a tendency to say it’s bad and causes suffering and

yeah there’s suffering and there’s badness and goodness it’s all of duality but it’s also just what it is. It’s like

when it stops becoming an enemy it makes itself an en enemy as a way to perpetuate itself. That’s how clever

Yeah. Like in the meetings, I feel like a lot of people try to say the me is bad. This me and it’s made into this

whole new story of me having to die and it’s this thing that’s there. It’s not there. There is no one. Yeah. Yeah.

So, we’re talking about something that’s not even there. Yeah. It’s a dream. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The only thing that’s fighting the me is the me. [laughter] Yeah.

Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. And so this is this is like home.

It’s like oh okay when that when that fight is seen through that it never was a thing that there never was an enemy

that there never was anywhere there was now nowhere there was this then it’s like ah relax

natural you can’t tell someone relaxation is the natural thing that happens when this is

yeah I remember saying the first time I’d said everything is meditation it seemed like yeah Yeah.

When this tried to meditate for the first time, it sat for 15 seconds and ran out the room.

That’s hilarious. You’re so lucky. I was good at meditation.

Oh man. You know, I think if I’m telling a good story, it’s that Zubin’s mind had so many thoughts.

There’s no mind, but the thoughts that were just go was just so intense and they were so self-reerential that meditation seemed to seemed to slow the pace.

And so it was relief. But then it became a kind of seeking like 5 hours a day of meditation. What am I doing? Avoiding feeling what’s happening in the

energetic contraction of the body or or actually allowing things to arise that were very uncomfortable. I would kind of dissociate.

Yeah. It was like a drug. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I was going to say meditation, drinking, what’s the difference? It was addictive, too. Like I would I would compulsively think about just stopping what I was

doing and sitting and doing an hour. Yeah. Yeah. My wife knew what was up.

She’s like, “You’re just avoiding everything.” I’m like, “You don’t know me.” [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And meditation’s fine, too. Yeah. Sitting, not sitting. Mhm. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s a surprise. That nothing’s out of place. Nothing could be wrong.

Yeah. It’s perfect in that.

[laughter]

It’s not perfect in the sense for the person. The perfect needs the person needs it to be a specific way. When things are in order, when it’s put right, nothing needs to be put right.

That there’s no other as the perfection. No comparison. That’s the perfection.

[laughter]

And then people the mind will say cuz I know you get this too I’m sure in the meetings but what about the children in

ex country that are suffering you don’t you think that’s perfect you think nothing needs to be done

it can’t be applied that’s the thing it’s not it’s a nonapplicable that’s why it’s not even a message and it’s not for anyone

cuz as soon as it just it can’t make It can’t be inexperience. You can’t make it into something.

It can’t fit into the story. It can’t fit into your life. Mhm.

What how you behave like Yeah.

Yeah. It doesn’t work. Just the mind will try to work it out. Yeah. It doesn’t work. That’s right. And yet the story continues. It goes on.

The appearance continues.

You go [clears throat] do something about the starving child or the war or whatever. Why not? Yeah. That’s what’s arising. Yeah.

The the difference is what’s lacking.

There’s no sense that I am doing this for a purpose. Yeah. Yeah.

For the future, for this. It’s just nope. Yeah.

The person when it tries to help someone else is actually doing it so it can feel better. Always. Yeah.

Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah.

It’s funny. I used to be really into these different maps of personality, you know, like the enog and all this stuff, like these different like, oh, you’re this type and this type. And uh just the

other day I was like I wonder if this still applies in any way if it’s if it’s consistent cuz I’m a certain you know anagram six with a this and that. So I took the test online.

First of all I found the questions to be perplexing because they were things like you know you agree on a scale of 1 to

five how much do you agree with the statement about you? And it was like things like I feel a sense of moral outrage when I see injustice and I must simply do something until it becomes excessive.

And I’m like I have no idea what you just said. Wow. Yeah.

Like I I don’t even know how to answer this cuz I just do what’s arising. There isn’t a sense of moral outrage.

And so the answer was like it was perplexing. It was the opposite of what it was just random. Like it didn’t know what to do.

Oh yeah.

Like it was like oh everything was equal. I was like, uh, oh yeah, it’s very strange. Which is different. Before I had a strong personality type

that I would fight for those particular aspects of what I thought I was loyal and all these different aspects. Strange. Yeah.

Yeah. I think a lot of it was just I didn’t know how to answer the questions. Yeah. They didn’t make sense anyway. Yeah. Yeah.

Here I remember having to filling out fill out like questionnaers and stuff with questions like that. I always never knew how to answer and there was always

a huh like what’s wrong with me? Why can’t why do I don’t have why don’t I have answers interesting for things that seem to be common and

people should have answers for

[laughter]

I don’t know. Wow.

So it’s like almost like energetically that was already in inclination of yours. Yeah.

Yeah. For me it was like all this belief and identity had to be shredded with claws. Like it was really years of excruciating misery.

Yeah. But it didn’t show up always as like that. Sometimes it was just like, hey, oh, I’m more awake than I was before.

[laughter] Oh, I went on a retreat and I had this insight and like I did that.

The spiritual seeking is really an ordeal. Yeah. Yeah.

And then later Zuben would tell the story, oh, because you went through all that ordeal, now you can help others who are going through that and you could tell them to [ __ ] all that.

And it’s like that, no, that’s not true. That’s a story. Yeah. Yeah.

That may happen. Someone may call me and I’ll be like, “Yeah, stop.” But it doesn’t It’s not going to do anything cuz nobody’s telling anybody anything. Nothing’s happening.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is nothing happened. It’s pretty awesome. Yeah, it has nothing happening. Pretty cool.

Yeah. [laughter] You said it before. It’s like love. It’s unconditional love. It is love.

Yeah, it is love. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s just that the person can’t do nothing with it. It needs something, but what’s longed for is nothing.

So, it’s [ __ ] It’s [ __ ] And they’ll even say, “That’s not what’s longed for. I don’t long for no thing. I long for meaning and purpose.” It’s like,

Mhm. [clears throat] That’s what the mind says it longs for. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seeking mechanism.

Seeking mechanism. And how has that worked out for the mind? And the mind will even tell stories. Oh, it’s been great. I went I became a nurse or a

doctor or I became a you know car salesman or whatever I do and it gives me purpose and I have my family and this and this and this but then they’re

drinking or they’re eating or they’re you know having nightmares about ah there’s all the contraction is still

there. Some people I think just minds tolerate it better.

Mhm. It’s less like I think you were born, if I’m speculating, Zabi was born with an intolerance for that. It’s just not going to sit. Yeah.

Yeah. Something didn’t seem right.

Yeah. And I think there are a lot of people for whom it’s just totally okay.

Yeah. Most people go on with life apparently, just never questioning anything like this. That’s right. They just seem to get enough.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it’s just fine. Most people, it’s totally fine.

Right. Now I think it spins up a society that is a little strange because the values in the society are a little strange but that’s okay.

Yeah.

Yeah. That’s not really I mean that’s just again more of this.

But yeah there are people like yourself I think like me when I was young I was just what is this? Mhm.

I just didn’t know what this was. I was like, I don’t understand h how you you said this in the meeting actually and it

really resonated like in a way that I was like I’ve never been able to put my finger on it until you pointed it out and then I realized

it was always the case which is when the mind is overlaying labels and trying to make thing things real and mine and

persistent and solid that in itself the very solidity of This

is suffering. It feels wrong. It feels a lack of ease, like a tension, like a rubber band pulling. Like if this is real, that’s not okay.

It’s strange. Yeah.

Yeah. That energy of realness is like in here and then it’s in everything else.

Ah, yeah. And it’s the solidity. I’m real, everything’s real. Yeah.

I relate, you know, me and other. It’s just that whole mechanism. And that’s distance. That’s the same as distance.

time. It’s just one separate thing. Yeah. It creates a false or it creates an illusion of separation that’s uncomfortable.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So that when you said that I was like, “Oh, wow. That’s what it’s been.” It’s like this unease and this tension

of I think that’s what it is. That’s separation. Like if that’s real, then I’m real. And if I’m real then I’m separate.

If I’m separate, I’m not enough. If I’m not enough, there’s a big hole. There’s a big hole. I’m going to seek to fill it.

And then lather, rinse, repeat again and again and again. Whole life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s crazy cuz it’s like automatic when that tension arises. It just needs to fix it. It’s like the energy of it’s like something needs to be fixed.

You know, it’s innocent because that’s what it does. It feels discontent. What to do? Fix it.

Yeah. Yeah. And the miracle is that’s nothing. showing up as constellation.

I was just going to say that actually that is being that there’s not a person. Yeah. There’s nobody making a mistake. Yeah.

There’s nothing showing up as like it is nothing. Yeah. Yeah.

You can’t even say it’s showing up as cuz it implies some kind of like transformation. This is nothing. This is nothing.

Yeah. Yeah. Nothing and everything are the same. Yeah. They’re the same thing.

Yeah. You can’t even say nothing because you would have to at the same time say everything.

You need a word that combined everything. I think we just call it this. Yeah. Yeah. This. This.

Yeah. It’s just that energy that wants to know just doesn’t get anywhere with this with what’s being shared.

Can’t do anything with it.

Yeah. [laughter] The the hopelessness of that. It’s hope is just something else. Hope is not, you know, most people, oh, you need hope.

Hope is so great. It’s really not. It’s always not this. Hope in the future, but the future never comes. So, it’s always

not this. The meaning of hope is always going to be not this. [laughter] Hope is hopeless.

It’s hopeless. Hopelessness is freedom. That’s right. Helplessness. Hopelessness. Freedom. Yeah.

Yeah. Not in the way the person thinks of it. Oh, I’m hopeless. Not like that.

No, just true hopelessness is freedom.

Yeah. [clears throat] And and this is where I think uh people who’ve had some realization about this will say things like you need to just be hopeless. Just give into hopelessness.

Who’s going to do that?

[ __ ]

How are you going to do that? That’s not how that works. Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, I mean when I I can’t even

[sighs]

I could tell all kinds of stories about, oh, I had this realization and that realization, this happened. That’s all [ __ ] It’s all garbage.

I can’t say how any of this there’s no causality of this. Yeah. Just this is how it is.

Yeah. When that seemed to be happening, realizations or whatnot, it seemed important and special. Very special.

Yeah. It’s just [ __ ] Total bullit anyway. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

you know, and then people talk, they have this group speak about these realizations, which is all fine. It’s like that’s the spiritual industrial

complex that keeps itself going, which I consider like spirituality in that sense. That whole world,

it’s kind of like um a secret press secretary for the mind that’s coming out and spinning it in a certain way. It’s like, oh yeah, now we can fix this suffering by you you will give into hopelessness.

You’ll do shadow work. You’ll process your trauma. You’ll you will do these things and they’re your traumas and your shadow

and your and this is just cuts the legs out of that.

Yeah. Not intentionally, but yeah, it does.

Yeah. It’s just it’s n it’s just what how it is. Yeah. Yeah. It’s uncompromising.

But it’s not trying to be uncompromising. Just the way it is.

[laughter]

Ruthless but with a smile. Yeah. It’s just Yeah. This is just how it is. Yeah.

[clears throat]

And you really have no hope. There’s no hope. There’s no hope for you. There’s no hope. There’s no one.

Yeah. [laughter] There’s no one. Yeah.

Yeah. There it’s it’s it’s impossible for there to be a timeline. How can there How can this be moving?

Where is it? Where is the story? There is no story. There’s never been a story.

[laughter]

And then people ask, “Where do I go when I die?” [laughter] Like, “Uh, this is that.” This is that. [laughter] Yeah, that’s

beautifully said. Where do you go when you die? Here. But, but you mean I’ll be awake? I don’t know what you’re talking about. Oh, man. There’s nobody there.

Yeah. The person thinks nothing can happen without it being there, without it knowing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[gasps]

You met my wife at the meeting.

She said something once. She was sitting here and she said, “You know what? I just realized this is what it’s like when you’re already dead. [laughter] Like, this is what

there never was a life. So this is what it’s like when you’re dead. This is what death is like.” And I was like, “Yeah, it’s just this.” Yeah.

There’s nobody home. They’re just this.

Yeah. [laughter] It’s not purgatory. It’s not limbo. This. Mhm. You could say there’s only life.

Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s all words. Yeah. Just no one has it. No one has it.

How can you have a life? How is it possible to have a life?

It’s just Yeah. You can’t even and then people will say well then do self inquiry because if you look which by the way self inquiry might show up

incidentally like spirituality meditation psychedelics all the things might show up as appearance and the realization can still seemingly

occur. It has nothing to do with those things. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s like you can spend all day with the mind looking for the mind and not find it and the mind will be like there’s no me and yet here you are. [laughter] Mhm.

You’re like, “Maybe tomorrow that’ll stick.

I’ll really believe it. [laughter] Man, yeah.

[snorts]

It’s like a comedy, but at the same time is like a tragedy.” Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s the saddest thing in the entire imaginarium like that that that this occurs this way and yet it’s like so funny. Mhm.

Cuz it’s not happening that way. Yeah, it’s not.

Yeah, it’s not. But it really feels like it feels like it. That’s the sadness.

Yeah. You can’t tell that energy that it’s not.

You can’t. So, it’s impossible if if there’s a person listening to this, an energy of someone. It’s impossible. It can’t get it. Yeah.

It’ll fight it.

But something does hear this. It sounds a little woo woo, I know, but it’s not. But that’s how it is. Something hears this.

And you know what? when something here is this, that personal energy is writhing around uncomfortable, wondering what the [ __ ] is going on. Yeah.

And so sometimes that’s an interesting sign if you start finding yourself very uncomfortable, like wanting to run the [ __ ] out. Yeah.

But and yet still here eating popcorn, watching us, listening. Mhm.

Apparently just going, “Wow.” Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. this. I remember not understanding why I couldn’t turn it off even though there was so much pain with listening.

Wow. Wow. That’s beautiful. Yeah.

I couldn’t turn it off even though there was so Oh, that’s that’s the See, that’s the that’s the tragedy and the comedy at

once. That’s it. Like I God, it’s just torturing me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh.

Oh man. Oh [gasps] yeah. If I create a story, if a story arises now about a timeline and how this all went down, I mean, I would burst

into tears cuz it was so [ __ ] long and arduous and painful and total hero’s journey where Zuman was suffering and

went on a quest and came back only to find out there was nothing going on.

[laughter]

And yet it’s nothing like that. It’s just like Yeah. It’s just love. Yeah. Simplicity, homeness everywhere. Mhm.

It makes going on vacation a little bit of a challenge cuz [laughter] it’s hard to even be like, “Yeah, let’s do that.” But yet it arises like, “We’re going to

Japan next month.” It’s like, “Why?” Mhm. Why the [ __ ] not? Yeah. This will be this in Japan. Yeah.

But it’s not because, you know, I got to I’m just so tired of this place. I just got to get the [ __ ] out. I need something. I need something better. Yeah.

Although the food is better. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. It’s really good. Yeah. We got to go to Japan. We’ll do a non-duality tour

[laughter]

in Japan. We’re big in Japan, man. Oh man. Yeah.

Wasn’t Nahu from Japan? The speaker. I don’t know that person. Oh, I don’t know that person. Yeah.

[clears throat] She might not be. I don’t know.

[laughter]

I mean, the Japanese had a bit of a head start because certain flavors of Zen directly feel like they embody whatever this is,

but then it’s wrapped up in all this discipline and tradition and process and and then they’ll tell you there’s no process. There’s no discipline.

Mhm. So, it’s it’s tough. It’s really hard. Yeah.

Selves trying to wakeelves up is not a thing. It doesn’t do anything.

Yeah. It makes no sense when I see a lot of this stuff. It’s just like what?

[snorts]

Yeah. If we were being really absolutely as ruthlessly hopeless as we want to be, well, we don’t want to be, I would say

this either this is either wired to happen like in a sense for that particular character or body mind or

it’s not and there’s nothing that there’s nothing there to do anything about it. This is it’s like part of the film is playing out that this film strip

character seemingly realizes something about reality, but it’s not. It’s nothing like that.

So, every word I just said as I was saying it, I was like, that’s a culde-sac. And then it’s like going nowhere. Yeah.

It’s talking to talk at that point, which I’m really good at doing. [laughter] Yeah. Had a lot of practice. Oh, man. Yeah.

[sighs and gasps]

Did the drinking fall away? Yeah. Yeah.

Two and a half years ago, apparently. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No treatment, no aa, none of that.

Never did that. Never. It never uh resonated here in that type of thing.

You mean you don’t believe in a higher power? [laughter] You don’t believe in a higher power, Zabi? What’s going on?

[snorts]

[laughter]

The sense of separation is literally the cause of all suffering.

When that sense arises here and everything else out there,

that’s just suffering. That whole just that base that mechanism of it.

Yeah. It’s suffering that it’s happening to someone is suffering.

Yeah.

The cause of all suffering like literally that’s that’s how it was seen here apparently. Yeah. It’s felt here too. Same.

How can there be a self without a sense of separation?

You can’t even the universal self capital S that people talk about is separate in some way.

Yeah.

So the whole construct just of separation gone. Yeah. Yeah.

It can’t be imagined. It’s not something that’ll be experience.

Yeah. It’s the end of that whole construct the subject object reality

[laughter]

separation. Yeah. Yeah.

That’s what creates the sense of a whole of a hol. Yeah.

Yeah.

[clears throat]

[laughter]

And I was just thinking like, you know, for for these two that separation was intolerable

and it led to whatever. It didn’t lead to anything. It’s just it shows up as intolerable. Yeah.

And it goes for I think most people it’s just normal and fine. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s the everyday suffering of being a human and it’s fine.

Yeah. Um nothing right or wrong about either.

Mhm. Yeah. Here there was a um sensitivity to getting and losing. Getting and losing. Mhm.

Because that’s what me is.

Just [clears throat] gets and loses and then wanting to hold on to it. Yeah. Me too. Yeah.

Yeah. In fact, it was so pervasive like everything was like that. If I had a hobby, it was about getting the next best thing in that hobby.

Like I was into audio gear for a while, so I was getting these vacuum tubes and Oh, this cable sounds better than that cable. Mhm.

Oh, I I could make it sound a little better. It was like a insanity. Mhm. And I knew it was causing me suffering.

I could feel it. Yeah.

It can be anything. Substitute anything for audio gear. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I know people who have [clears throat] I’m dying, zombie. I hope you know CPR.

Oh, man. It’s [laughter] It’s a new strain of CO, everyone. [clears throat] [ __ ] It’s called uh [laughter] It’s called Novid.

It’s non-dual COVID.

It [clears throat] has no um no viral capsided subject or object. Um,

[clears throat]

forget what I was talking about. Doesn’t matter.

Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. To me that personal energy to that

energy this is important what’s happening you know cuz it’s going somewhere.

Yeah. you know, somewhere else where it would be better, you know,

and it knows that this is not it. Yeah.

Like it is sure, absolutely sure that this cannot be it. It for sure is going to be somewhere else in the future.

It’s certain. [snorts] That’s exactly how it was here.

It was absolutely sure. You could not have convinced that energy that this was enough. Yeah. There’s no way.

Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. It is the energy of discontent in itself. Mhm. Yeah.

Mhm. So how can it be happy in this moment? It this is never going to be enough. Yeah.

So the longing is for it to be enough in for the mind or for that energy. But the

deeper longing is like just to that whole construction to relax and see that this is already home. This is it.

Yeah. And the and the loss of that energy when that seems to not when that seems to evaporate,

it’s seen that I know there’s people in this these type of you know meetings or [clears throat] whatnot they’ll say the me falling away. It never really actually falls away. There’s no person.

Thank you for saying that. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s just there there’s tension that might release. There’s like a a contracted sense that might go, but

there’s never a person. That whole construct was just completely illusory.

That that that Yeah. [clears throat and cough] How could it be other? Yeah.

You’re going to invent a person to have it fall away. [laughter] It it never was never there.

Yeah. It would love that. The person that energy would love for there to be Yeah. Let’s fall away now.

Let’s fall away now. Yeah. Let’s fall away. Yeah. still here. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so there’s a [clears throat] lot of talk I think that can confuse people.

I want the me to stop. I want the me to fall away. I want this thing to die. Yeah. That is the same energy. It’s the same energy.

The wanting energy. This is not it.

Yeah. The strange thing is like I can’t even point to any moment or

event when that even relaxed. All I can say is it seems absurd that it ever was felt to

be and yet I know what it’s like for it to feel to be.

So it’s then that there’s love that arises, compassion, like the the tragedy part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Cuz you know, you’re like, “Yeah, it’s like that. It’s horrible.” Mhm. Yeah. If [clears throat] it’s uncomfortable, it’s the most uncomfortable thing. It’s a source of discomfort.

Yeah, it is. Yeah. The core of the discomfort. Yeah.

Mhm. [clears throat] I made an analogy recently that it’s like a nuclear reactor at the core of every person driven by separation.

And it usually shows up as some kind of un inadequacy, unworthiness, hole, brokenness, that kind of thing.

And then we spin up an entire adaptation. We wrap it in concrete in a reactor core to keep from having to look

at it because it’s so uncomfortable. And then we go and do all these things in the world that are powered by the core separation. Like I need to get more money.

I need to have a girlfriend or a boyfriend or whatever.

I need to, you know, accomplish things or I need to numb myself with the next thing. Yeah. And this core is just going.

And then when you actually take the concrete off and you look right at the core, you for a while you think your face is going to melt off and then you realize

there was nothing there. Like there’s no separation, no unwillingness. Yeah.

Yeah. Even that seeking energy is this. It’s what can’t be known. It’s appearing as seeking.

It’s the perfection showing up as seeking. Yeah. It’s not separate. That’s right.

So there never was separate. Yeah. Yeah, even that experience, even when that seemed to be happening, it was not separate. Yeah.

Isn’t that a mind [ __ ] The mind is just like, “No, it is separate. It’s different than that cuz the mind discriminates. It makes a difference.” Yeah.

Yeah. I can’t help but to do it. Can’t help but do it. That’s fine.

That’s why what’s being shared is not for that. Yeah.

There’s no need to understand anything that’s being said. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, good luck trying. Yeah.

Yeah. [laughter] That’s not how it works. Yeah.

M Yeah. No one’s doing it. Yeah.

The criticism of this way of speaking in [clears throat] spiritual circles.

Again, I see like the press secretary for the mind coming up for the seeking energy coming out and being like, now the problem with you guys is

that you’re not giving us anything to do a fat lot of good this is going to do if you’re still so mind identified that you believe that you’re your thoughts, your

beliefs, and your body. And it’s like and so nothing is going to tell nothing

how to do something to wake up. I can give you tons of different ways to live a story better. Meditation,

psychotherapy, all the drugs, all those things has nothing to do with this cuz this is already the case. Nothing can do

this because there’s nobody home to do it. Mhm.

So the whole the whole enterprise collapses under its own house of card that’s not real.

Can’t work that way. But that’s what that’s what they want. That’s what they want on YouTube.

Except from people like Jim and Teddy who are very good at just saying, “Fuck you.” Mhm. It’s like this. Yeah. No one’s doing this.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s amazing. Gorgeous. Yeah. The play, the dance.

Yeah. Yeah. I ain’t mad at it. Yeah. Tupac said it right, man. I had it.

Yeah, that’s right.

Oh, you a Muslim now. No more dope games. [laughter] Oh, yeah. Rest in peace, Pac.

Yeah.

Mr. International player with the passport. Yeah.

Yeah. [groaning] E40. Oh yeah, man. We used to listen to all that stuff.

He just got his restaurant broken into. What? Where is it? In Oakland. Oakland. The Lubia factory I think. Oh man.

Forgive me if I said it wrong, but yeah, as the Filipino he co owns it, I think.

Oh yeah. Yeah, dude. 40 was was uh we used to listen to that and back before you were born, man.

That’s [laughter] the early 90s.

He was [clears throat] uh he would come into my buddy’s um my buddy worked at this head shop called Annaperna in Berkeley and uh E40 would come in and buy Bees.

Yeah.

Why? I’ve Why have I heard of that smoke still there?

Uh it just closed like in the last couple years, but it’d been there forever. Yeah, it was a famous smoke shop. I think I’ve seen it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

They sold everything. The old school head shop on Telegraph. Yeah, for sure. I’ve seen it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Think about a lot of taser there.

Probably. Yeah. My buddy My buddy worked there and used to meet all these guys. All the local rappers. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Too short to show up all the time.

Yeah, that’s cool.

Yeah, it’s good stuff, man. The V A L L E J O

[laughter]

H I D L SO.

Yeah, I used to see a lot of them at uh Rasputin in San Lorenzo. Oh, in San Lorenzo. They come out there.

Yeah, cuz I live like right like down the street. Nice. So, flipping through the CDs. Yeah.

Yeah. I remember I spent so much time at Rasputin and Telegraph when I was at at Berkeley and just flipping through these discs. Oh man.

I remember I had to get doggy style the Snoop Dog thing came out in 93 or whatever.

And to buy it you it was because it was so explicit. You had to ask for the guy behind the counter to pull out a copy and give it to you. You couldn’t just grab it. Yeah.

Oh damn.

I was all embarrassed. I’m like could I have doggy style? Like it’s like a nerd college student.

Oh man. I completely forgot about CDs until you brought it up.

I know, man. [ __ ] CDs, man. That’s right. Click, click, click, click, click, you’re gone through. Now it’s back to vinyl. Thank god. Vinyl’s good stuff. Yeah.

Yeah. [clears throat] So, there’s no distinction between what was just discussed. And this I mean, it’s the same thing.

E40 vinyl CDs.

There’s Yeah. Nothing special. Higher than lower than. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It’s life. Yeah.

Life happening. Yeah.

Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. There’s nowhere else and there’s nowhere to get to. There’s no need to get anywhere else.

This is wholeness. This is that which is longed for like deeply.

The end of the struggle is this.

[snorts]

And the struggle is this too. Yeah. Yeah. All of it.

In the story of Zabi, it was game over when it’s just a story. But when that energy seemed to be fighting, kicking and

screaming, it seemed like it was happening here.

When it became clear that even that is what’s arising. M that it doesn’t need to be gotten rid

of. It still did its thing, but it seemed to vanish or, you know, fizzle out.

Yes. Here, too. And and it wasn’t done intentionally.

Yeah. You can’t It was just suddenly like, “Oh, this is fine, too. This is also this.” Yeah.

So then the all the distinctions just naturally collapsed. The energetic separation just naturally cleft. Yeah. Yeah. It can’t be done.

No.

Yeah. There’s no one to do it. It just seemed to happen.

The whole idea of that is the creating that loop of separation which is also this is it’s a recursive

loop of it’s a doom loop of of just this

[laughter]

as you see I try to talk about it. It’s just like doesn’t make any sense.

Very what you just described though that that’s really beautiful. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s really because that is the g it’s like the natural surrender of even the fight. Mhm. And you don’t do it.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s um it’s openness that leads the way if you want to say I like that openness. Yeah. Willingness.

Yeah. Willingness. Yeah.

And of course the mind will say, “How do I get that openness?” Yeah. But that’s fine. Mh.

It’s just we’re just using words to describe this indescribable natural attunement and even that words.

But yeah.

Yeah. It it’s very hard to imagine and maybe it’s possible because anything’s possible in the appearance, right? But having very fixed constricted beliefs

about the nature of things and then having home be seen as home. It it seems very

hard because that very nature of holding belief is that energy. What what is

swallows that up. [laughter] Nicely said. Yeah. What is swallows that

up. M m from within. [laughter] It’s what it is.

It’s like hi, it’s me showing up as belief as nonopeness.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

If there’s no openness, this will never like it will be turned off, you know, or the next video will be gone too. Yeah. You won’t even be here. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It just dismissed as

[ __ ]

This Yeah. It’s funny. There’s a tendency here because of my training as a physician to

want to tell people who watch like that it’s going to be okay. And just the very fact that you’re watching is enough

that the attunement’s already the case and that you can just relax. And so those words will come out knowing that there’s no one who can do that.

Um and yet it just arises cuz this instrument does that. It’s like it’s used to telling people we can treat this thing, you’re going to

be okay, right? Um, and there’s a love that powers it in a sense. The love of just what is.

So if you’re here, that’s what is. And it’s like, yeah, all right.

This is something that lights up this character anyways. So yeah, we’re in good company. Yeah, except for the people that are watching just to be haters.

This is going to be some of those, well, but if meditation doesn’t work, then explain this. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s like you use the word explain which means it’s not going to happen. Mhm. Yeah.

Yeah. [snorts] Man.

[sighs and gasps]

Yeah.

My favorite are the non-duality police on YouTube that go around every video and they’re like, “Nobody’s doing this.

There’s no me.” It’s like, I get the sense that you’re saying things to say things. Yeah. It’s quite adorable.

Yeah. [laughter] Oh, man. Yeah. Non-duality police. The non-duality police. Yeah.

Are there any speakers that you turn you say, “Yeah, that one’s pretty

good.” Jim and Tony. Jim and Tony. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a few though. Yeah.

Yeah. There’s a few more. I There’s a guy Richard Sylvester. Yeah. He’s seems quite good. Book is interesting.

Yeah. Yeah.

It’s funny. I read these things now not because they’re showing any kind of a truth or there’s any desire to like

wake up. I read them because I’m like, I wonder how people talk about this.

And then you kind of read and you go, this person, I think, at least seems to come from that, but that’s an interesting way of expressing

it. So, it’s kind of more like a hobby like like audio gear.

This vacuum tube’s interesting, but there isn’t like a grasping for it. It’s interesting. It’s very relaxed now. Yeah. A couple books like that.

Lisa Lennon is another one. I remember her. Yeah. It’s been a while. She just stopped doing YouTube.

Because she was like, “Okay, that stopped.” Mhm. Yeah.

I I had a I had a call with her and she was just like, “Yeah.” Mhm. I mean it felt again it felt like

like it feels when I’m sitting here but now it feels like that always there even the most deliluded apparent diluted person apparently because

nobody’s really it you’re just like okay there’s this sometimes it’s not preferred because there’s a [clears throat]

there’s a replication of the sense of contraction like a feeling like a memory in a sense that arises now of like what that’s like and you’re like

ooh ooh ooh okay there’s so much. I I think this body really prefers before it just wants to walk away and like go sit

and look at a my a pair of reading glasses or just stop that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Such a relief. Yeah.

No one has to change. Yeah. Yeah.

That energy seemed to be like grasping, you know? It felt like that was going on inside. M trying to get a hold of something.

Yeah. You know, anything. Anything. Yeah.

Nothing can be held on to. [laughter] Yeah. What is this?

Yeah. But to that sense, that energy, it it can know that it doesn’t help. Doesn’t make any difference.

Yeah. Cuz it feels like it can hold on to something and that’s the suffering of trying to hold on to what can’t be held on. That’s true. That’s right.

Yeah.

That’s another reason I like the way you said earlier on we talked about when there’s a sense of me everything else feels kind of solid and separate.

That’s not a thought that we that is an energetic and the word energetic even is kind of goofy. It’s just it’s a embodied

embodied that’s good. It’s an embodied sense of separation that feel so you can tell it anything you want. You can reason with it all you want.

It’s going to it’s going to feel how it feels. period. And for people who are very much in their heads, like my personality was very much in the head,

it was very hard to access the real feeling of contraction without turning it into a thought or a belief or something that I could solve through intellect.

Mhm. And it doesn’t it never would work. Mhm.

And it took like I don’t know what it took. I can’t say it. I say there was a lot of very disruptive things that happened in life

that [snorts] just somehow it was seen that that was just never this wasn’t. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I think for me it was a lot of looking at unworthiness like why do I feel so unworthy? What is that? What is unworthiness?

Just having it invert on itself energetically. Yeah. Yeah. But I didn’t do that. Mhm. I don’t even think the looking did that.

the looking showed up because that was I don’t know very frustrating for people who are watching. How do I look at my unworthiness? Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.

Yeah. That energy is like a sense of unworthiness, not good enough. Yeah.

Yeah. And it expresses so many different ways. You want to be good or moral or you want to be bad to be counter to that. Or

you want to be safe, so you do all the things, you’re always vigilant. Or you want to be um unique and special so that even though

you’re broken and separate, at least you’re broken and separate in a unique and special way that makes you okay.

Or you’re um you help [clears throat] others because otherwise your brokenness is just too broken. So you have to help others.

There’s so many different ways a personality will do that. Yeah.

And it all stems from separation like you were saying. Mhm. This fundamental sense that that I am. Yeah.

That’s why this look for the I am. Look for the I am. Rest as the I am. What? What? What? Yeah.

It’s a snake eating his tail like in Zen. Yeah.

[snorts]

I mean, anything’s possible. Maybe doing that shows up when that’s already unraveling. And then people would make a connection and they go when you when you

self inquire you [clears throat] wake up or maybe the energetic dissolution of that self just automatically the mind

reflects that as hey who am I and it starts looking yeah it’s like like self inquiry is kind of like what is it’s like that energy

it’s like oh so I can’t find myself that’s all it is and then yeah and then here I Not finding myself.

Here’s myself not finding myself. Yeah. Yeah.

[laughter]

Yeah. There’s times when I just I want to say burn it all down. Like stop. But that that’s pointless because who’s doing that?

What? And what’s there’s not even enough juice here for that because it here all that was done.

Yeah. [laughter] And only now is it seeing like Yeah. I know that didn’t do anything. It’s crazy to think it could have.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. All the struggle of me was for nothing.

[laughter]

That’s a real depressing pill for the mind, man. Like all the struggle of me was for nothing. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Mhm. [clears throat] That’s right. And now we can say it with like this kind of goofy smile, but I tell you

at the time it’s like Yeah. It’s not nice. Not nice at all. Yeah.

Yeah. and somebody’s going through it, you’re not going to smile at them.

You’re you’re going to be like, “Yeah, very very difficult, very sad.” A lot of compassion will just naturally Mhm. Yeah. Not in any special way. Yeah.

This communication is the only compassion. This doesn’t see that. It doesn’t talk to that.

[laughter]

That’s the true compassionate act. That’s true compassion. Yeah.

Is just saying no. No. Everything else just feeds that suffer.

Feeds the snake. Yeah. Trying to chase its tail. Yeah. Yeah.

And but the but the key thing here is this is compassion for no one.

It’s not me being compassionate. It’s not you doing it for someone. It’s just compassion. Yeah. Yeah.

And that might be heard. Yeah.

By question mark. Yeah, [laughter] exactly. If I mean if people are still listening, still watching, there’s somebody there that’s hearing

that something that’s hearing, not somebody or not even something there’s hearing.

[laughter]

I don’t even know. You can’t say it.

It’s crazy actually. It’s our minds trying to [laughter] It’s funny when you catch when I catch myself meaning that mind movement trying to explain

something like that it just kind of shortcircuits and there’s a realization it’s not knowable which it was always the case.

Yeah. But it’s a fun little dance that mind still will express. Yeah. Yeah.

Which is fine. Yeah. here if I tell a story when the unraveling was happening it seemed like there would be certain conditioning or patterns that would come

up and then it would get chopped off and it couldn’t continue you know like I try to nope it’s a big nope yeah

I can resonate with that yeah I can resonate with that [clears throat] isn’t it funny it just happens spontaneously

it’s like that here too now yeah road rage which was one funny pattern that used to come up and it would come and express and it would go and it would come and express then there were stories told about it.

Oh, you know it’s shadow is coming up and it and then one day it was just like someone cut me off and I was like

like out of my mouth came like [ __ ] please what the [ __ ] are you doing

[laughter]

and but there was no like there was just like and then keep driving. Mhm. Yeah.

Just the machine just did its thing but there was no charge to it. There was no me to it. Mhm. Nothing to take it as mine. Yeah.

Yeah. [laughter] Then I chased them.

Pulled them out of the car and beat the [ __ ] out of them. And it was a little old lady. So, but I mean, you know.

Oh, man. [laughter] Kicked him.

Just started kicking him. Listen, Grandma.

You never ever cut off [laughter] Zdog MD. Do you know who I am? Do you know who I am?

Oh, man. Do you know who my friends are? Zabi.

Have you heard of [laughter] him? He will stab you. You don’t even You have no idea. Oh man.

Have you been to Afghanistan? I didn’t think so. [laughter] Oh man. Yeah.

[laughter]

[gasps]

Oh man.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Spiritual gangster. Someone sent me that [ __ ] Yeah. Spiritual gangster.

I was like, I don’t know what that means, but it’s provocative. Yeah.

[laughter]

All kinds of weird [ __ ] Like someone sent me this hookers.

A candle that smells like hookers and blow which I mean [clears throat] what other scent do you really want? Hookers and blow.

Oh man. [laughter]

[gasps]

So in in your daily life like has anything really changing how you interact with people or any of that stuff apparently?

There’s a just a easeness with everything. I guess that’s the only thing that comes up.

Yeah. Everything seemed to be difficult somehow and a struggle. Just conversations or anything that was done

and it’s just not like that. I guess that’s a good way to say that’s the only thing that’s good way to say it. Yeah.

Yeah. The struggle is le is just not there. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That that constant need that tension of trying to get something out of everything

that [clears throat] doesn’t seem to be there. Yeah.

Yeah. There’s a natural ability to say yes and no without a lot of that. But uh what about uh but me how will I that tension?

It’s just like no I don’t want to do that. Yeah. Yeah. Sounds good. Yeah. It’s just more spontaneous. Yeah.

um that you you can say I guess a lot has seemingly changed but this doesn’t know what.

That’s a good way to say that.

Yeah. And that’s so true. It’s there’s no knowing of what’s lost cuz you don’t know what you lost. It’s just not there anymore. This is really a loss. It’s not a gaining of any kind.

Yep.

And in the end it’s not even a loss because there was nothing there that was ever had. It was energetically felt like

there was stuff had a life for example. Yeah. Yeah. But it was never the case. Yeah.

So it’s not really a loss but in the seeming unraveling if that does seem to happen it feels like loss for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That’s what I was saying earlier.

I think like I notice things only that are absent now that I seem to recall were there before like negative internal voice or

you know whatever it is road rage all those things. Yeah. Yeah. Less [ __ ] are given in general.

Cuz there’s no one to give the [ __ ] Yeah.

So [ __ ] can arise. That’s interesting.

Yeah. Like I don’t like that. Yeah. Yeah.

No really like anything just arise and just shows up. Yeah. Yeah.

There’s nothing that’s pushing anything away or Yeah.

You know, saying that it shouldn’t be there.

Yeah. That’s the main thing is the the pushing and pulling on what is just doesn’t make sense energetically. Like it just can’t land the way it used to.

Even if the motions of it still arise. Yeah.

Like I tell my kids, “Hey, clean that [ __ ] up.” Yeah. But in reality, if they were like I mean, if there’s no problem that’s

felt. It’s just there’s a there’s a there’s a pattern that plays itself out. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. There seems to be conditioning in everybody. In everybody. Yeah.

The way it acts, talks, walks, you know, the character. Yeah.

It’s almost like there’s only the conditioning left. Yeah. Without that secondary.

Yeah. There was like an overlay that was judging the conditioning. Yeah.

Saying if it was good or bad, right or wrong, you know? Or almost it was like, “Yeah, this is my conditioning and it needs to be better.” Yeah.

You put a straight jacket over the condition.

Wow. That’s good. Yeah, that’s right.

Yeah. I have a friend who speaks this way, Pierce Salggero. He talks about this as you un you take the guard rails off the conditioning and then the conditioning just plays

out. There’s nobody doing it’s like the he calls it the autopilot. It’s like the autopilot is just flying.

It’s always been flying the plane. You just thought you were sitting in the little co-pilot’s thing thinking you were controlling the plane, but the autopilot was doing it the whole time anyways.

Yeah.

Now that little guy in there is gone and they’re just the autopilot. Yeah. Yeah. It’s always been spontaneous.

Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s just lovely. Lovely. Yeah. Yeah.

It is uncomfortable for there to be a feeling of being behind the eyes and seeing a world external that needs to be

navigated and dealt with and put in order and need to get stuff right or to

progress and to become something and then somewhere in the system knowing you’re pushing it away but knowing that

you’re going to die. That whole that’s it’s pretty grim, man. It’s pretty grim.

Yeah. The whole experience of the person, it’s Yeah, it’s pretty grim. How is it any different than like a factory farmed

like cow that’s stuck in a cage like just eating and then it’s just going to be slaughtered and the whole time it it kind of knows

that something’s up and it’s just sitting there and it it thinks it’s separate from all these other cows. H I don’t know why that image came to [laughter] mind cuz I actually don’t have strong feelings about any of that.

Like I I’m still eating a hamburger but it’s like Yeah. I don’t know. Maybe maybe that’s God telling me I should be vegan. [laughter]

Oh [ __ ] Oh man.

That’s what the spiritual person would say. Yeah. I mean person like that personal energy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. [laughter] Man, it’s really funny. Yeah. [clears throat]

[laughter]

What a strange thing too that like the two of us are sitting here speaking in this way. Like what did that? Like

that’s I mean Corey introduced us but [laughter] it’s like what’s Corey? Like this is all a mystery. Yeah. It’s great.

And that didn’t happen anywhere else. No. Yeah.

That didn’t happen in Berkeley as opposed to another place at another time. It’s always been this. Yeah.

Yeah. This is that this is that as the memory of us meeting. Yeah.

This is why you know people have asked me cuz I’ve said this when my father passed. It was a couple years ago.

I said uh where would he go? like well I don’t understand like there’s nothing that’s happened and yet the grief is all I has felt

but it does it’s he’s here now because where else and there’s also no he there never was a he and yet it’s a total paradox.

Mhm.

So even grief I would say that’s something that’s changed if I’m going to say there isn’t like I’ve been worried my whole life about losing a parent cuz you you do that.

Yeah. And then it happened and it was like yes there was lots of like oh my god and

grief and loss and then there was just like wow there was just this like a sense of awe uh like oh it wasn’t anything like that.

Mhm. Yeah.

Yeah. really really because what once it’s like [laughter] I I just don’t have a word for it.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

People ask me to explain further because they want they’re worried about their own loss. Yeah. I totally get it. But it’s like Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Can’t be said. Can’t be said. Yeah.

Yeah. To the person can’t be said is just horrible. Oh my god. Give me something, please. What’s wrong with you?

Yeah. I’m desperate. Right. It’s an energy of desperation. It desperately needs something for its own survival.

Yeah. Yeah.

[laughter]

Man. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, it’s not nice. It’s not sense of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s not nice. And it’s also Yeah. It’s also not an enemy. It’s not a Yeah. There are no enemies. There are no enemies. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Simultaneously. Yeah.

And this is the thing. You can say strongly, it’s not preferred. It’s not nice. It’s tragic.

And there might even be action to try to express in a way that that kind of clarifies, but in the end it’s all okay.

It’s like, yeah. Then that that’s there’s that terrible grief, pathologic grief, like horrible grief. That that’s what’s happening then. Yeah. Yeah.

And it can be met with love. I mean, that’s fine, but it’s what’s happening. Yeah. Yeah. Can’t be other. Yeah.

Remember when in the story of Zabi when I first heard it’s what’s happening it would piss it off so much. [ __ ] it.

Or this is immediiacy that would p this is the last thing from immediacy.

[screaming]

[laughter]

Totally get it. Yeah. Yeah. Very frustrating. Yeah.

I’ve been told directly to [ __ ] off by people. This is perfect. This is the perfection. Shut the [ __ ] up.

Yeah. Oh yeah. But when I when I heard perfect, same.

Oh, same thing. Like just anger. Yeah. I used to feel that way, too. Yeah. Yeah.

And now it’s like I don’t know. It’s so hard not to use that word for me because it’s such a relief to see that it was always the perfection.

Yeah.

But the Palestinians, but the Israelis, but the It’s like Yeah. The person misses it. Yeah. And it goes somewhere else, you know?

Yeah. Imagine something else.

It totally misses about totally misses it. And it goes into it the belief structure and the story of time and outrage and pushing and pulling.

Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. Cuz this is solid.

This is real persistent through time and I’m navigating it like you said. And that sense of being behind the eyes. Oh man. So painful.

Yeah. Yeah.

[laughter]

Oh man. And then Oh gosh.

That’s you know I think that’s why the Zen people and the Buddhists speak in this way about the bodhic sattva vow like this desire to help all beings like

you’re not there’s no all beings and there’s nobody to help anybody and at the same time when it’s seen that this was always home and you see someone

suffering and you know what that is there’s a natural movement of like oh yeah like what can I do and yet there’s knowing that this too.

Yeah. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of a movement of love like ah Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. This is love. It’s it can’t what can’t be said is love.

There is um a real in loveness in hearing that here. Yeah. Something heard it.

Definitely something heard. I used to start crying. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was known.

Yeah. It’s known. It’s the wrong word, but Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. Exactly.

It’s known. It’s known like some deep level energetically. It’s not a conceptual knowing. Yeah. Yeah.

It’s not a mind knowing. Yeah. Cuz that’s not knowing.

Cuz everyone is that, for lack of better words. There’s it’s there’s only that. That’s all there is. There’s only what’s longed for.

Yeah. Yeah. And it just seems to be covered up. Seems to be covered up. Seems not really.

Mhm. [clears throat] Cuz it is that also the covering is boundless covering.

[laughter]

Boundlessness is great. Yeah. Boundlessness contracting. Boundlessness. Neurotinging. Yeah. Neurosing.

Neurosing. Yeah. [laughter] Neurosing. Yeah. Yeah. That’s right.

That’s right. And even then you’ve tried to find the boundaries of the boundlessness showing up as neurosis. There’s no boundary to neurosis.

It’s just the cloud. Yeah. Yeah. That’s crazy. Yeah. That’s really crazy.

That that I was going to say that we could see it as other than that and yet it’s not crazy because it’s so compelling.

The illusion is so this that self energy is so so good at what it does. Yeah. But to itself. To itself. Right. Yeah, that’s right.

It’s only It’s It’s like a circle jerk of self.

[laughter] Yeah. Just just around in a circle with itself. Cuz what else? It’s only looking at what it knows.

That’s right. What it can what it thinks it can know.

And that’s just more thought, more self, more energy, more contraction. Yeah. Seeking. Yeah.

That’s the crazy thing is like the seeking energy is the self in a sense.

Maybe directly. And yet we give it all kind of [ __ ] to do to wake up and it’s like God.

Yeah. It’s way Oh god.

It’s all the specialness. Me me me me me

me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me

me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me special special. I’m waking up, you know, it’s just the specialness is so insidious. It’s so sneaky.

It fits if it slides in everywhere.

Yeah, cuz Yeah. either special or I need to be special. I need to be special.

Oh man, I used to feel like so and so speaker’s talking to me. I’m so special. I must be so or such and such.

Oh yeah, this video did well. Therefore, I’m resonating with people which means I must be so special and awake. Yeah.

And then when that’s kind of seen through you’re I none of it seems to matter. Yeah. Yeah. Here in the story there was confusion.

It was there’s let’s say certain speakers that had only a few hundred views.

Mhm. But there was so much of a resonance with that. Yeah. And the sense of specialness that was put on that. Oh yeah.

As much as this put on rappers for example or something, right?

And there was a confusion like what’s going on? Like why is Yeah. That whole thing just fell apart.

It falls apart. Yeah. I was the same here. Yeah. This total like and just excitement to be anywhere in their proximity or Yeah.

Yeah. and then being disappointed when it was like, “Oh, this have nothing.” The disillusionment that would happen

here with some of these folks was just like, and it had nothing to do with them.

They’re just they’re they’re no different than me. They’re they’re just that.

It was just I was imbuing them with specialness because I thought I was special by being anywhere near that kind of thing. And

then when it collapses, it’s a gift actually, but it it hurts a lot. Yeah. Yeah. So painful.

Yeah. I was going to say a word I forgot what [ __ ] it slip, but yeah, it’s Yeah, it’s a total disappointment. Disappointment. Huge.

It is. Yeah. And then there’s a sadness and a grief and a oh man. And then there’s a feeling like what happened here is like I’ll never be

okay. I’ll never find someone to make me whole to teach me how this is.

[laughter] And then then that scene through it’s like oh my god.

Yeah. I thought, you know what I really like when I cuz I like I don’t go to these meetings like there’s just I don’t

know why. But when Corey reached out and he’s like, “Oh, there’s this guy Zabi. Do you know Zabi?” And I looked at some of your videos and I’m like, “Oh, he’s just like pointing from the radical

place that’s obvious. It’s just what he’s saying is obvious.

Like why would I need to go and sit with that?” And then then I was like, “But I’m going to go sit with that.” And then I go and sit with it and I’m like, “Yeah,

yeah.” Uh but there’s there’s no like grasping for it or like it’s so relaxed. Yeah. That’s just in loveness. In loveness. Yeah.

Yeah. Cuz not everyone in meetings are seeking. They can just be going to meetings to go to meetings. That’s right. Yeah. There’s nothing there. Yeah.

Yeah. I’d say if I’m honest, there was probably like a question like what are these things? Like there was curiosity cuz I hadn’t really gone to those kind of things.

I’d only gone to certain retreats that were very like seeking oriented. So I was like, “What’s this like?” You know, and I I’ve hung around with the some radically direct people.

And see, I know what that feels like, but it is in loveness. That’s good.

Yeah. I’ve used that word loveness in general. Like what is this? Oh, it’s loveness. It’s it’s

Yeah. It’s a textural almost like a Yeah. There just there’s nothing apart, nothing pushing and pulling on it.

Yeah. The sense of me was like a cohesive glue that was trying to bind everything and it’s sticky. Everything stuck to it.

That was the the sense of it here. Ah, beautiful. Yeah. Stickiness. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It’s like a It’s like quicksand in a way. Yeah. It just sucks everything into it. Yeah. Yeah.

The contrast from that to the unsubstantiality of this.

Yeah.

Yeah. Lisa Lisa Lennon I remember when we were talking she was like it’s just a total freef fall of like it’s free fall. Yeah.

It’s just nothing.

And I was like yeah that’s exactly right. Yeah. Talking to her felt like loveness too.

And then but after it was done it was like oh that no need. There’s no grasping for it again. There’s no like oh I won’t be okay if I don’t have that.

Yeah. Yeah. It’s not a good business model for Lisa.

She’s trying to do one-on- ones. You want to make people grasp. You want to get that seeking mind. That’s that’s the paradox of spirituality, especially if you’re doing paid stuff, you know? It’s like cuz it’s fine to make a living.

It’s fine to share. Whatever arises is fine.

But it it does have a certain dynamic then that they have something that I want. Yeah. Or I need to be with them. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. It’s okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And I mean it beats pimping hoes and clocking a Does it though? Does it though, Zabi? I don’t know. Does it? Oh man. I’m not sure anything beats that.

Yeah.

Uh

[laughter]

[gasps]

I think in many ways disillusionment was a gift. The self getting that separate separate self getting perpetually beaten kicked in the face.

Yeah. By disappointment. Disillusion. Felt like that. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Like [ __ ] you. Yeah. Oh no. I finally found something.

There’s someone here who can Ow. Ow. Ow.

And then then the [clears throat] other end of that is like, oh, there was that was never the case. Yeah. Yeah. It’s unbelievable. Really?

Completely in every sense of the word. Yeah. Truly. Yeah. Yeah. Beyond belief.

Yeah. [laughter] Gosh.

Still a surprise here. It’s just It’s never It’s never known. [laughter] It’s never had. It’s still like a a

quiet wow, you know? Yeah. Beautifully said. Yeah. There’s no arrival. Yeah. There’s no arrival. Yeah. How could there be?

Yeah. How would this be still? Yeah.

How would this stop? How would this Yeah, that’s what me wants. Stop. Stop. Got it. Yeah. Freeze frame. Boom. Own it.

Capture it.

What did Ariana say? I want it. I got it. I [laughter] bought it. Yeah, exactly. It’s mine. Mine. Mine. Mine.

My sister went to a concert. Oh, yeah. In Oakland. Yeah. How was it? She liked it. Yeah. Yeah. She’s lost a lot of weight. That’s what she was saying. Yeah. Yeah.

[sighs]

Yeah. Celebrity is an interesting thing. I don’t recommend it. I tried it. Yeah. It was um it was a good lesson.

That nothing will make you whole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Even here, this pretty much got everything it wanted in the story. Yeah. It wasn’t enough.

It was like what the It’s like the worst to feel like separate being separate and a person and

then get everything that you possibly wanted and then just sit there and be like, “Okay, now what?” It’s like it’s Yeah.

The no face still eating, eating, eating.

That’s how it was here. It was there was always that just dissatisfaction. And you know what was funny is what part of the reason my wife kind of

unraveled. We kind of unraveled together in different ways. But she I remember she would ask me like why are you doing this? Why are you seeking? Why are you

off this a few years back? Why are you like going to these retreats? It feels like you’ve never been happy with what is. You’ve never been happy with what’s

right here. And it feels like my role has always been to show you that this is enough. And I’m constantly trying to show you that this is enough. And you’re always seeking. And I remember I told

her, I go, “I’m seeking because I want this to be enough.” Like, I want to be able to sit here and be like, “This is it.” And and it’s not possible. It’s not possible.

And it has nothing to do with you. It has nothing to do with this that we’ve built. None of that. It will never be enough. Yeah. It’s heartbreaking actually. Yeah.

You have to have your heart totally broken. Stop. It’s heartbreaking.

That’s what I’ve said multiple. It was heartbre.

Yeah. M cuz in a sense the person just wants like you said okay this is enough now.

Yeah. And it just won’t happen. It won’t happen.

Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. It just won’t happen. Yeah. And when the whole paradigm of that just goes it’s just gone.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. It’s not bad news because it it just that whole setup goes needing to get something and make a it’s enough now.

There’s no one to have it.

That’s right. That’s right. It’s not like you have enough now. Yeah, it’s just the whole the whole story doesn’t make sense.

And now that’s how it is with my wife and I is we just kind of look at you like, “Uh-huh. Yeah.

Oh, should we go to Japan? Yeah, let’s do that.” Yeah. It’s And there’s no one to celebrate.

There’s no one to gloat. There’s no one to be like, “We solved the problem.” Because there was no problem. Yeah. Yeah. And there’s never a problem.

And the seeking mind. This is what I loved about my seeking mind. And people tell this to me. I want what you have.

You’ve attained this thing. It’s like if you if you just knew what you would just be like

it’s [snorts] this. It’s always been this. And yeah, it’s beautiful. It’s loveness. It’s all those things. But there isn’t anything here apart to go this is better than.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s the end of that. It’s the end of that. Yeah.

And that comparison, that constant comparison, comparing mind is brutal. That’s part of it. Oh.

Oh, yeah. Doctors are really good at comparing mind. Oh, well that guy, you know, they they say they do all these studies and it’s like

I used to say it’s from the New England Journal of Duh. Like, of course. Oh, people are usually happy with their pay

until they find out what their colleague makes and their colleague makes more.

Then they’re like, “I’m not happy with this.

I need more comparing mind.” Yeah. It’s wired into the seeker. Yeah.

Yeah. Because if someone’s separate and you’re separate from them and they’re doing something better, then there’s a less than feeling that then flares up.

I used to feel this with certain speakers that I know. Like they would instill in me this feeling of less than as an awakeness, like you’re less than.

They weren’t doing it intentionally. It was the unworthiness that was projecting that. Yeah.

And I would get Yeah.

Now it’s just seen as like that whole paradigm doesn’t make sense. Mhm. Less than what? More than who is. Yeah.

Yeah.

Like nothing’s got. But it’s just the end of that setup. The setup. Yeah. Yeah. Which is what’s longed for. Yeah.

Yeah. Absence. Absence. Yeah.

Isn’t that strange? What’s long for is absence. Yeah. Of that. Mhm.

Yeah. It’s nutty. Yeah. Really, really crazy. Yeah.

Oh, and it’s nothing that you’ll walk around and tell people, “Hey, I’m absent, dude.”

No, it’s the end of even you know how I It’s just normal. Whatever normal means. Simplicity.

Simplicity. It’s this. Yeah. It’s pure dog [ __ ] ordinariness. Yeah.

[clears throat]

So, I knew there was still like this big self energy rolling around in this body when I would want to proitize and tell people like, “Ah, dude, this is what

it’s like. Oh, this is the end of suffering, man.

It’s the end of suffering is you got to do this. There’s really nobody home.” But like inside there was somebody home. Yeah. There was that sense of contraction.

just conceptually it was known and there was some like clarity but it was still just grasping it. Yeah.

Wanting to tell everyone so that I would feel okay too. And now it’s like dude you’re perfect.

And if you come to me and you’re like I want relief from suffering. I’d be like okay let’s talk. I don’t know what that means. Let’s do it. Yeah.

I can just tell you how it was here and reflect. You say something. Something comes up here. Maybe it’s a dance that’s supposed to happen in that way. I mean it’s supposed to happen.

There’s so much conditioning too around even how we speak meaning predestination like free will or no free will the whole

paradigm drops like what are you talking about? Why are we talking this way? Yeah. Yeah. Free will.

Yeah. There’s no one to have it or not have it.

There’s no one to have it or not have it. Yeah. So the question just becomes irrelevant. What is consciousness? What is what? Mhm.

There’s this Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I, you know, because I’m who I am, meaning the conditioning with the guardrails off is Zuben likes to conceptually discern things. So I’ll

talk in videos about how there is no consciousness that you can find. And everyone will argue with me and say, “Well, the Buddhist said the consciousness is is a verb really. It’s

more of” and I’m like, you know, all this is just [ __ ] What is conscious? What is consciousness if there’s no one to know it?

What would what would know anything? What would be aware of? Mhm.

Like Yeah. It’s funny. The person thinks awareness is the key, but awareness is separation. It’s separation itself. Yeah. The witness. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. It’s it’s madness. Oh, but it’s a stage to seeing that there’s no Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can’t stop. It won’t stop. It’ll never stop.

Yeah. Okay. This is a Rockefeller record. [laughter] Oh.

Man, Rockefeller. Dude, I I totally [ __ ] with my focus. Every time I I move, it just goes.

Oh, well, Rockefeller. [laughter] So, who who who in hiphop like who are your who are your people, man?

I like Rod Wave a lot. I don’t know Rodwave. Yeah. Okay. I’m going have to check that out.

Yeah, he’s cool. He’s a rapper and he sings a little bit. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And then I really liked YW Melly a few years ago, but he’s in prison. Well, you know, jail happens. Yeah. In that space.

I used to like this old school uh Bay Area guy named Safir.

Uh the nomadic attic. But that was like I’m reaching back into the 90s cuz that’s when I was really conditioned in my hip-hop. Yeah.

I like Jay-Z. Oh yeah. Yeah. Older Jay-Z. Yeah.

All of it. I mean, I’ve done parodies of a lot of these songs. Yeah. It’s kind Ice um or 50 Cent. M you can find me in the lab bottle full of crap. Yeah, stupid. So funny, man.

Like the God. No, it’s I look back at those videos and it’s like somebody else. [laughter] It’s like a character like look at that character doing the dance.

Yeah. Yeah.

So funny. [snorts] For the person a video is evidence that it happened. Ah, totally.

It’s not evidence, bro. I keep telling people and they think I’m a total terrible father or some kind of nihilist, but I look back at like old photos of like family photos

of still the kids when they were babies and there is the arising of like, oh yeah, I remember that. And then there’s a knowing that that never happened.

That never happened. Like this what that image is didn’t happen. That’s a that’s a phenomenal arising right here.

and whatever Hawaii was or whatever where the kids were like this this like it’s impossible to talk about.

Yeah.

But the mind hears it as oh you’re denying the existence of your children.

It’s like well I’m denying anybody’s existence. I’m not denying anything.

There’s nothing to deny. It’s it’s total paradox. Yeah.

Yeah. At this point you’re just like all right.

Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.

You got to talk. It doesn’t matter either. Like those things used to bother me. Like I’d be like, “Why can’t I explain?” It’s like cuz you can’t. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Cuz trying to explain it, it just it’s a loop. Yeah.

Doesn’t work out. [laughter] Yeah. Can’t. Yeah. Just go listen to music. Yeah.

[laughter]

Oh man. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

Were um energetic senses a big part of the unfolding?

Apparently there it was all energetic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Like would you feel actual there was feelings of energetics?

Kind of felt like a a fizzing out

[clears throat]

a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hear too.

Yeah. [snorts] Yeah.

Yeah. There were currents and Yeah. And it kind of just settled out. Yeah.

Yeah.

Every now and again there’ll be like a little movement, but it’s just so natural. Yeah.

For a while, you know, and the mind makes a big deal out of it. So yeah, it makes a story of it. Yeah. Oh, condundalini is happening.

Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah.

It’s just a Have you found that your energy levels

you’re much more there’s much more sensitivity to the energy levels of the body being high or low or different or like Yeah. I think this body’s just sensitive overall. Yeah. Seems like Yeah.

Yeah. Now it’s like that here. It’s there are days when I’m just like don’t really want to do anything like cannot like I do what I need to do I’ll

get it done but there’s no extra you can’t force it to do something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Just you know it just goes through. It’s just like a movement does what it wants to. You know it does what it wants. Yeah.

And there’s a relinquishment of the reins of control cuz there’s nothing there.

Yeah. Yeah. Some habit energy maybe sometimes of like, uh, let me let me force myself to go to the gym or something and then it’s like, that’s not

happening. [laughter] Sit right back down. Yeah.

[clears throat]

Liberation is the end of the need for liberation.

[laughter]

[laughter]

[gasps]

Hallelujah. [laughter] Yeah. That’s that’s it. Wow man. Yeah.

It’s it’s that simple. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. [laughter] This was This was a lot of fun, man.

There’s no reason to do this and yet it’s really a lot of fun. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I love these talks. It’s just It’s a joy.

It’s a joy. Yeah. Just Yeah. It’s like game recognize game. And what’s recognizing it? The game.

[laughter]

Oh, man. Oh.

Well, maybe um since we’re running at the end of the time that uh I have this thing in 15 minutes, maybe we’ll wrap

this one up and uh people can leave in the comments and stuff like what their experience is [laughter] and we’ll get all the usual like non-duality hate, which is good.

[clears throat] And then um we’ll do another one maybe. Oh, yeah.

If you’re down to clown. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Maybe I’ll come out to you. We’ll do it from from phones or we’ll just do it here. Yeah, we should do a live and take take comments. Yeah,

yeah, cuz we what we can do is we sit side by side and we’ll run it and uh people can shoot [ __ ] at us. We’ll see what comes out.

Oh, yeah. That could be fun. Yeah. All kinds of stuff. Yeah. Awesome. Thanks, man. Oh, yeah. No, thank you.

Such a joy. Yeah. [laughter] Thanks.

Thanks, Abby. Yeah. It’s so strange that we say our name.

It’s like we’re we’re separated at some previous birth.

[laughter]

[gasps]

All right. Yeah. And check out Zab’s um YouTube channel. I’ll put a link in. Zabi Non-duality. Yeah.

Zabi non-duality. And um I’ll see you guys next time. Thanks, brother. All right. Cool. Thanks, brother. [laughter] No.