A Fate Worse Than Death? Understanding Disability Insurance

Dr. Z:  Hey, ZPac it’s Dr. Z. Welcome to The ZDoggMD Show. All right, listen, I’ve been saying this for a long time that if we don’t get our own financial house in order as healthcare professionals, and we’re notoriously bad at this, someone else will always control us. Whether it’s a big administration, whether it’s the medical hierarchy, whether it’s a boss that you don’t like, they’re gonna run your life. And that’s why today’s guest is really important to me because Matthew Wiggins has a company called Pattern that’s actually dedicated to educating and protecting medical professionals, and helping them empower themselves to actually take control so that someone else doesn’t do it for you. Matt, welcome to the show, man.

Matt: Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Z:  Man, so you and I were talking, the reason we got connected is you’re a Doc Vader fan.

Matt:  Absolutely.

Dr. Z:  Yeah, what was the first one that you saw?

Matt:  I think I was watching the Episodes, right, Episode 1, 2 and 3, the longer ones. And the one that stands out to me is the, “Did you Die?” That’s probably one of my favorites, because I’m like, yeah, that’s right, did you die?

Dr. Z:  And so we got connected because you particularly work on life insurance and disability insurance for medical professionals, doctors in particular. And that’s interesting to me because those are very poorly understood. And medical professionals, as you know very well, are the worst at understanding personal finance and that, and that means other people take advantage of them. Whether it’s private equity companies who hire them with crazy contracts, or whether it’s an employer that abuses them and, or they’re running their own private practice and they’re just not doing it efficiently and working harder than they need to. So, how did you get into it?

Matt:  Right, well, that’s what brought me into it. So I was a financial planner. I was one of those guys did investments, and I did everything.

Dr. Z:  Were you just gouging people on commissions, is that–

Matt:  You know, kind of. I mean, it was like, all right, so where can we make more money charging a fee or charging commission, you know? I would say I’ve always had a heart for wanting to help people. So I don’t think I was ever quite that notorious, you know. But there was definitely an aspect of, I’m gonna try and do all these things and make as much money as I can off of each individual. And I was working with business owners and just kind of generic, you know, general public. And I realized that I wasn’t moving the needle as much as I wanted to. I really wanted to help a segment of the population that knew nothing about finances or very little and they were being taken advantage of. I kind of needed a group to come in and share my knowledge with, that it would actually move that needle and help them. And so of course whenever I was kind of doing market research and getting to know some of our clients and everything, I found that the young doctors, in particular, were the ones who were being taken advantage of with contracts, being taken advantage of, you know, sold the wrong kind of insurance, getting into really bad investments all these wrapped fees around it and everything. So I just think I found that group that I said, I can actually move the needle with my specialty, my financial specialty, if you will, I can actually move the needle.

Dr. Z:  You know what’s interesting, we were talking offline, you found a lot of resistance to this from the medical hierarchy a little bit. So in other words, young residents, medical students, young doctors were like, Matt teach us, like we don’t know what we’re doing. We’re we have all these loans. There’s this contract I don’t understand. I don’t understand disability. And she’s like, why do I even need it? Like, why should I get life insurance now when I’m young? Like what’s going on? But if you said, hey, I want to go to the medical education establishment and say, hey, we should make this part of the curriculum. This should be part of what they teach us. They’re like, well, no there’s more important things we need to teach, and we know, we don’t deal with companies, and things like that.

Matt:  Yeah, well, excuse me, I’m an outsider, right? I’m a business guy for the for-profit company. So I was kind of this outsider, but you know, I’m sitting here looking at the medical establishment, you know you’re ACGMEs your AAMCs, your whatever, you know, people who are kind of running the show, with GME anyways. And then I see the actual residents and fellows over here. And so I would go and speak with them and I would share things with them, like here are the main pitfalls to watch out for in your contracts. You know, look out for these different things. And so we would finish it and then we’d get like the highest ratings of an outside, you know, all the different groups would say, rate the outside speakers that came in, and we’d get the highest ratings. And people would come up to me afterwards and say, you literally changed my life. I had no idea. I was about to sign a contract, because I’m just supposed to, right? My first contract, I’m supposed to sign whatever I get. And I helped her, and I said, no, no, no, don’t just sign it, know what’s in it, and you can actually negotiate some of these things. It just revolutionized her life. And so I’m hearing that from the residents and fellows. So then I’m going to the establishment and I’m saying, okay, they’re saying it’s changing their lives. They’re saying that this is really important to them. Maybe we should add some curriculum. We’d be happy even to donate our time, to develop a library of curriculum that you could then use and give to them, and we won’t charge you even, we will just give this content to you. Because we saw what a difference it made in their lives. And the question was, well, why are you doing this? You know, you’re a business, obviously there’s gotta be some nefarious purposes or something. I’m like, no, we just want to help, you know? So yeah, I’d say we ran into this need, we saw the need, but we ran into this roadblock of not being able to do it widespread like we would have wanted to, because of those roadblocks.

Dr. Z:  So what is this need? Because I tell you when I was a resident, I had to learn, I bought “Investing for Dummies,” I bought “Personal Finance for Dummies,” and I had to read it myself because ain’t nobody teaching me that. There was no mentorship. You know, my dad would just be like, learn about money. I’m like, okay, so teach me, dad. I don’t know about money, I’m a doctor. I’m like, well, that doesn’t help me. And what ends up happening is you end up in your first contract, you end up overextending. The first money that you get, you spend it all. You end up increasing your debt, you’re not paying your loans down. I mean, is this a pattern that you see? What’s the need in this community?

Matt:  So over, over again, it’s just a lack of information. So here’s what we truly believe. So our whole purpose statement at Pattern is, as doctors make better decisions, lives are changed. That’s it. And so truly, that’s for sure clinically right? Doctors make better decisions clinically with the patients, lives are changed. We believe though that financially, and in their lives, and outworks in their relationships and things they give to, things they purchase, their community, how they impact it, how their wellbeing is. I mean, everything you can think of is impacted by this type of thing. Doctors are smart, they’re smart people. And typically they don’t get into medicine because they’re slackers. You know, they actually want to make a difference, they want to do something. The problem is, is they’re put into this system where they’re overworked and underpaid. And so you find this long period of time where they’re so hyper-focused, they don’t learn these other things. And so at 32, they get out of this whole GME system. And you know, their friends who graduated from undergrad at 22, have a decade of figuring out finances, figuring out work, figuring out contracts. They’ve probably moved up some ladders, they’re getting paid pretty well. And they’re 32 saying, wait, what’s a budget? And what is insurance? And what am I gonna do? I have 300,000 in debt and I’m handed a 250, $300,000 a year salary. You know, the stakes are really, really high. And so what we found is that if we just empower them with the right information, we connect these smart people who want to do good and want to work hard, with the information to kind of make it from point A to point B and not, you know, totally mess it up along the way, give them a really good foundation. So I think really just having some guidance, having the information to make those good decisions.

Dr. Z:  You know what’s interesting is there’s this Vinay Prasad, Dr. Prasad and I were talking about this the other day on his show. And we were saying, you know, there’s this feeling that, oh, if you, you know, if medicine becomes too hard, the smart kids that were gonna go into medicine will end up going into the financial sector, investment bankers make a ton of money, et cetera. And both–

Matt:  Become an internet personality.

Dr. Z:   Or sell out to big internet for the clicks. I did it for the clicks, Matt.

Matt:  I hear you, man. You’ve done all right.

Dr. Z:  And, so what’s interesting though is we actually disagreed with that sentiment because physicians go into, and I’m curious what your thoughts are on this, physicians go into medicine, not just to make a bunch of money. Number one, because they’re called. Number two, they want to help people. But number three, they’re actually tremendously risk averse. They actually choose it because it makes, to some degree, because it makes them a living in a stable, predictable way where you’re gonna make enough money if you just don’t screw up. And I think that is a mindset they come into. So we’re enriched in this sort of don’t rock the boat, change is dangerous, risk is bad. And that can actually be a very difficult mindset for managing risk, truly managing risk in terms of insurance and taking risk in terms of investments. Have you found that to be the case?

Matt:  Yeah, I think so. I think there’s kind of a, there’s kind of this herd mentality, you know, I actually offline was you a little bit of a story, but you know, I remember being in a large room full of people and this one, he was currently, he was a fellow, he stood up and he said, “The problem with GME right now “is that we come into it people, “and we get completely dehumanized “to the point that we leave it “as just a set of duties or responsibilities or procedures.” And it was amazing to watch a room full of, a couple thousand people, maybe 3,000 people, it was amazing to watch them basically tell him to sit down and shut up. And that really offended me. And I went to him afterwards and said, “No, no, no, you’re right. “The establishment, the people who are at the head “of all the stuff, they don’t want to hear that “because they’d have to change things. “But you are right.” And one by one, other residents and fellows came up and said, “You’re right, I feel exactly the same way.” So you kind of get this herd mentality a little bit though when you’re in the system of, we just need to take what’s given to us, and as long as I take what’s given to me and I don’t rock the boat too much, I don’t ask too many questions, I don’t push back on a contract, I don’t try to maximize things, I just take what’s given to me, I’m gonna be okay in the long run. So just take the medicine, you know, and just take it and just, you know, that’s it. And so I find that all the time. And so mainly with contracts. So we used to do a lot of work with contracts. And doctors would come and say, hey, I’ve got this one contract in New York and this one in rural Kentucky, which one’s better? And I was ready to sign it. And I just, but I thought I’d have someone look at it. Well, the one in downtown New York City, it was a general surgeon, I’m thinking of in particular, $200,000 salary, $100,000 loan repayment, over like five years. And you know, you start looking at that. The one in rural Kentucky was 450,000 of salary, $300,000 loan repayment, plus a a hundred thousand dollars signing bonus. It was crazy lucrative. And he was about to sign the one in New York because someone told him that’s the one he needed to take. and he didn’t even question it. He just said, well, I’m gonna sign the one in New York. Now here’s the thing, maybe that’s what’s best for him and maybe he should sign it. You shouldn’t just chase money, but he wasn’t even evaluating them because he was told by one person, I think was a program director or somebody like that, who said, oh yeah, this is who you wanna be with, take it. And he didn’t even question it. And so I see that all the time, not even questioning things, just trying to kind of keep your head low, make it through and you’ll be okay.

Dr. Z:  That hits absolutely on point. And there’s a few things there, I think, that we should understand so that people can self reflect in the audience and say, oh yeah, no, that is me. And maybe I could do better on that. This idea of chasing money as a bad thing. In other words, we’re programmed to try to be altruistic, but we have to support our families, pay our loans. If we’re not financially independent we can’t help other people, because we won’t be taking care of ourselves. And this is common in nursing especially, just self-flagellation to help others. And then just personally, nothing left. So that’s one thing. And the second thing is this idea of herd mentality. It is safe in a herd. So if I make a decision that is the standard of care, even though it’s dumb, even though it doesn’t have any evidence, even though I’m safe, I won’t get sued, no one can criticize me. And we’re all terrified of criticism because we all have imposter syndrome. We all feel like we’re not supposed to be here. So that makes for a toxic stew of inappropriate risk aversion, inertia, and bad decision-making. And I think, this is why I take somebody, this is why I wanted to have you on the show, somebody from outside of the specific tribe of medicine to go, hey guys, I see you. I want you to succeed. But this is what I’m seeing, and here’s how you might do better. Right?

Matt:  Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the most dangerous things, too, we haven’t talked about yet is, and it kind of blends into this, but I see a lot of the superhero syndrome kind of a thing where you can’t admit weakness as a physician.

Dr. Z:  Oh yeah. Especially when you’re younger, because it’s gonna affect the jobs you get offered. It may cause you to get some kind of stigma that’s going to follow you throughout your career. If you’re depressed, if you’re having any type of issues, coping with things. And so there’s a lot of silent suffering going on, especially in the GME world. That’s where I know it the best, GME and outside of it, first year, two, three, four, as an attending, there’s a lot of silent suffering that goes on. And then, because that happens, there’s these ramifications, right? So I’m silently suffering. I don’t know how to handle my finances. I don’t know how to handle the stress of this job. I don’t know how to negotiate a contract, so I got an awful call schedule situation. And I don’t know how to even, my family’s not getting any time with me, but I’m suffering in silence because if I admit this, this may come back to haunt me with reviews, with how I get paid, with any promotions, with any job opportunities in the future. So there’s a lot of that risk aversion and safety proclivity that goes on in the medical world. And some of it is just nefarious. It’s just silent and people don’t talk about it. And so from the outside, I see it, it’s so clear from the outside, right? It’s always easier from the outside. But it’s going on inside.

Matt:  Yeah, and you know, I think part of this is something I call the lack of communalization of pain. So we don’t put the suffering out there because of all the reasons you said, which are all spot on. And again, you’ve, listen, people don’t understand really who you are yet, because I haven’t given the full introduction. I mean, you travel all around the country speaking to medical groups about this stuff. I mean, your passion is teaching them and helping them. And you’ve made a business out of it, which is great, because you’re doing well by doing good in the world. But the idea is that you’re, as a non-clinician, you can say, hey, this is what I see guys. You know, this is important, you need to take care of that financial piece. So you take care of yourself. So you have a strong base from which to launch all these operations of helping other people. And that goes too, to alleviating this thing we call moral injury, which you and I were talking about. This idea that we’re serving multiple masters. We’ve got to serve an employer. We’ve got to serve our own financial wellbeing. We’ve got to serve our family. We’ve got to serve our patient. Well, sometimes, often those things seem to conflict, but it turns out they don’t have to conflict.

Matt:  They don’t.

Dr. Z:  We’ve created a system where they, by nature, conflict. Where you are, when you say GME, by the way, if people don’t know, it’s graduate medical education. The graduate medical education world doesn’t prepare you for this, it doesn’t teach you this. All you get from your mentors is, man, it’s gonna suck out there, you better figure out how to pay your loans and stuff. It’s like, well, okay, well how about some help?

Matt:  Yeah, there’s all these studies, you know, academia is great at studies. There’s all these studies on how, even how financial stress leads to deterioration of wellbeing and how these things coincide and everything. But there’s no solutions and there’s no help. And so, I mean, I gotta tell ya, we’ve grown a company, we’ve got some people and some bandwidth and we do some things, but we still feel like we’re the BB shooting at the tank, right? I mean, it’s still such a big issue. So that’s why we’re looking for a chance to get that voice out there and say, this is something people need to pay attention to.

Dr. Z:  So let’s get the voice out there. Let’s talk about what you do specifically. Let’s talk about disability insurance. Because we’re in the middle of a pandemic. and this is what is really interesting to me. We’re in the middle of pandemic. Doctors, nurses are getting sick, and some of them may even have long-term complications. At any point, you could get hit by a car. At any point, you could have a skiing accident. At any point, and so I had a friend, I have a very good friend from medical school, who is a radiologist and was climbing a ladder in their backyard to try to prune a tree. And he’s my age, he’s in his 40s. Fell off the ladder, doesn’t remember it happening. Kind of came to on the ground. Felt, okay, I’m gonna walk this off. And the next day went in and found that he had shattered leg, femur, arm, wrist, just disastrous. Now, in order to do his job, he’s gotta click on a mouse, he’s gotta scroll through images, he’s gotta be able to dictate. He couldn’t do any of that. And luckily he was in a multi-specialty group that provided some degree of disability. But if he didn’t have that or hadn’t prepared for that, it would have been a complete disaster. So tell me about this, teach us about this, because it’s something I never understood. They were pitching me disability insurance coming straight out of residency. I’m like, why? Isn’t my employer gonna do that? I don’t understand. So to teach me

Matt:  First of all, I’m sorry to hear about that. That’s an awful situation. It’s an awful story, but it’s not uncommon. And you know, I think, I think the statistics, there’s all sorts of studies out there, but it says something like, one out of every four or one out of every five, there’s multiple studies, so 20 to 25% of doctors, from sometime in their 30s to their 60s will be disabled to the point that they have to use disability insurance to live off of.

Dr. Z:  Wait, how many?

Matt:  20 to 25%.

Dr. Z:  Wow.

Matt:  Shocks people.

Dr. Z:  A quarter.

Matt:  Yeah, because it’s one of the most likely events that you actually will insure. Way higher than a house burning, way higher than you actually dying during that same time span. And people say, well, life insurance is a no brainer. Well, it’s infinitely more likely that you’re actually gonna get disabled. And the financial ramifications, I know this sounds morbid, but the financial ramifications, if you’re a bread winner in your family and you die, the income’s not coming in anymore, but your expenses are gone too. So disability insurance is one of the most insidious, slow bleeds, or disabilities, are one of the most insidious, slow bleeds on a family you can ever have, because now you don’t have your income coming in because you’re disabled. You can’t work. An illness or injury preventing you from working. Your income’s not coming in, but your expenses are still there, and sometimes a heightened amount of expenses are there because of your disability, and that family is now trying to cope with all of that without the benefit of your income. So here’s the deal with disability insurance. No, I did not grow up saying I want to sell disability insurance and help people get disability insurance, right? But, you know, let me ask you a question. If your income isn’t insured, what really is?

Dr. Z:  That’s right. Because at any point, you can lose it, and it’s pure luck, but by the grace of God go I, right? I mean, at any point.

Matt:  Think about it. So think about this. Think about even so we’ll talk things that are obvious. You’ve made financial plans. You’ve hired this financial planner. You’ve budgeted and you’ve got this retirement, retirement plans. You’ve got all this thing mapped out.

Dr. Z:  It’s all in Bitcoin, by the way.

Matt:  Yeah, all in Bitcoin. So you’ve got all this stuff mapped out, right? What’s the one engine that drives all of that? It’s your income, right? Like literally, you could pay Warren Buffet to make your financial plan for you. He’s from Omaha, he’s local for us, we like him.

Dr. Z:  That’s right, you guys are from Nebraska.

Matt:  That’s right, I’m from Omaha. So you could pay him and he could make the most bullet proof, amazing financial plan ever, and it could have 100% chance of succeeding. Like, I mean, I’m just making this up, but let’s say even if you could, and then all of a sudden you develop arthritis. Or all of a sudden you have a brain injury from something, or all of a sudden you have carpal tunnel or something that comes and you’re surgeon. I mean, it could be anything. Everything in that financial plan, even if Warren Buffet made it for you, out the window. So now let’s take it to something that seems a little more soft, not just financial. What about relationships? Like the number one cause of divorce is financial problems. So let’s say you get disabled, you don’t have the right disability insurance, maybe you have a little bit of group that comes in, which I’ll explain a little more on that in a minute, it’s not sufficient. Your employer’s coverage is not sufficient on its own. And I know, I’ll explain more about that in a minute, but it’s not sufficient. It’s one of the biggest misconceptions out there amongst doctors is that their group’s taking care of them. we’ve got the disability insurance. But let’s say that you let’s say that you, that’s all you have, you’re getting a little bit from that. But your expenses are such, you’re having to be taken care of because you’re disabled, that it wipes that out. So there’s no income coming into the family. How long is it before you run out of savings? How long is it before the stress of the finances actually wears on your marriage, on your family, on your kids? You’re having to move houses and take them out of private school and whatever else. It’s huge. So my whole point is, it’s not even just monetarily, it’s relationally, it’s future goals, it’s giving and things you want to do philanthropically. If your income is not insured, what really is? That’s what makes disability insurance important, is the higher likelihood that most anything else you insure, it’s also, look at this, it’s your largest financial asset and everything is impacted if it’s not going to come in over the course of your career. So it’s a big deal. If I didn’t feel passionate about it and I didn’t believe in it, I couldn’t push it. I couldn’t sell it, I couldn’t help doctors get it. But I firmly believe it’s one of most important things you can lock down early on.

Dr. Z:  It’s so interesting too, because it’s income insurance. That’s the way you think about it. You know, like life insurance, hey, once I’m dead, the family gets some money. First of all, it doesn’t help me very much does it? So from a personal standpoint, I’m like, you guys can just, you know, go panhandle because you know, ZDoggMD is out. But in reality, it’s that idea that you’re still alive and suffering, your expenses are still high, and now tell me more about this idea that the group policy isn’t enough. Because I think there’s so many employed physicians now, and they’re gonna say, well, no, but it says, they told me that I get X, Y, and Z. And so how does that work?

Matt:  So this is really impactful. And I hope this, this is something to really pay attention to because this is not known. This is, when we have this conversation, I’ve personally met with thousands and thousands of doctors. And this really does, we say our number one competitor isn’t these nefarious insurance salesman who are trying to sell you the wrong policy, although that’s definitely a problem. It’s actually this feeling that the employer’s coverage is good enough, so even if we tell them, hey, you really need this and here’s why, there’s this fallback. We never hear from them again. Oh no, I found out my employer provides this. So here’s the deal. Employer provided coverage has three main problems. Number one, if it’s provided by your group, it was paid for by your group, by your employer, it’s taxable to you. Yeah, so uncle Sam gets you on one side or the other. If you’re paying for your own policy with after-tax money, then the benefit’s tax free if you ever have to use it. If the employer is deducting it off of their expenses, as a business expense, as a benefit, and they’re paying for it for you, then that’s why, you know, the premiums aren’t taxed, so if the benefit ever comes to you, it’s taxed. So when they say we’re covering 60% of your salary, it’s more like 36 to 40% after taxes.

Dr. Z:  Okay, I have to repeat that. This is crucial, people don’t understand this. I’m gonna look at the camera and tell them this. So if your employer is giving you this benefit of disability insurance, and they’re already counting it as a deduction from the employer, the IRS will tax you on the disability benefit, which means 60% of your income is really much less because you’re paying tax on that. Whereas if you pay for those policies yourself with post-tax money, meaning you’ve already paid taxes on the money, here’s the premium out of my pocket, when you have to get that benefit, it is tax free, which means you get 100% of the benefit.

Matt:  That’s right.

Dr. Z:  And that’s hard and fast?

Matt:  Hard and fast. So there are some employers, very few, that will actually either gross up your salary so that you kind of, you end up paying for it a little bit or something. And I mean, there’s ways to get around it. But the vast majority, when I say vast, we’re talking 90% plus of employer-paid policies they give you are going to be taxed. So that’s the first major problem. Second major problem is this thing called own occupation coverage. And if you’ve ever heard anything about disability insurance, there’s this idea of, is it protecting doctors for their own occupation, their own specialty, or just practicing, or working in general? And this is, this is major. So this is the crux of a lot of the confusion that’s out there. Some of it is intentional confusion, and some of it’s not. But there’s a definition inside of disability insurance policies that say, if you cannot do the specific duties of your medical specialty, they will still pay you the benefit even if you can work in another job. And it can actually be related. Like you can be an interventional cardiologists making 70 or 80% of your money off of actual procedures and get disabled and still do general cardiology, and, you know, read echos and do consults and everything like that, and still get paid your full benefit. That’s not normally what happens, but the point is it’s very pinpoint on your duties and your procedures. And so what happens with most doctors when they get disabled, they don’t want to sit at home all day on a couch, right? I mean they’re doctors for a reason, they want to do something with their lives. And so if you have this true own occupation coverage, then you can teach, you can work at a library, you can do whatever, and it’s not gonna jeopardize what the insurance company’s paying you because you lost the right to do your specialty, to do your duties.

Dr. Z:  So this is very important. So what it’s saying is, because this is a serious issue, if, let’s say, I can no longer practice neurosurgery but I could still teach neurosurgery, I could get a paid position. if I don’t have own-occupation disability insurance, I would lose my disability benefit if I go and take another job in a specialty or a field that isn’t directly related.

Matt:  That’s right.

Dr. Z:  So you’re disincentivized to go and do something.

Matt:  You are. And it doesn’t always take it all away, sometimes it will proportionately reduce it. But the point is is that, if you go and do something with your life, if you go and do something and you get compensated for it in any way, you don’t have that true ownMatt: occupation coverage, then yes, they’re gonna reduce or quit paying you the money. So what happens is doctors sit there and they get disabled and then they start to recover. And then they say, what am I going to do with my life? I can’t be a neurosurgeon anymore. And they have to start making this calculation of, am I just going to sit here or am I going to go do something that might actually impact me negatively financially? And so really, I would never want to have to make that decision of, do I sit here or do I go do something, and I’m disincentivized to go and do something because it’s going to take away from what I’m getting paid for my disability. So it’s really a bad place to find in. And so there’s about 30 companies in the US that provide some kind of disability insurance. Only six of them have true own-occupation coverage.

Dr. Z:  Really?

Matt:  There’s only six.

Dr. Z:  So, okay, let me say this again. So there is a moral injury that comes from not actualizing yourself in the world. So in other words, I’ve been disabled. I have thought this particular path was my calling. There are these other things I could do that are important. I would suffer financially if I did those things under a non own-occupation insurance plan, therefore I’m disincentivized to do something that makes me feel whole in the world, and the contributor to the world. That’s gonna spiral me in unhappiness. And so this may well be the most important inflection decision on the disability policy. And you’re saying only 6 out of 30 insurance companies even offer that. So again, why you actually need to know about this stuff. Because you’ll make the wrong decision.

Matt:  It seems like. I mean, here’s the thing. I buy car insurance. I buy homeowners insurance. I buy all these insurances. And to me, it’s one of these things where once a year, once every couple of years, whatever, I might look into it and it’s not a big part of my life. It’s like, you know, something small. But I think what we really dedicated ourselves to is knowing that when a doctor decides to look at disability insurance, we want them to get it right the first time and not make these mistakes. Because I can’t tell you how many times a year I get a call or an email from a doctor who says, hey, I had this insurance from my employer, and I bought this policy from this company, And I thought I was covered. I got disabled, and I’m getting like a fourth of what I thought I was going to get, or half of what I thought I was going to get. What’s up? And then I’m doing the educating on the backside post-disability, they’re never gonna be able to change things Because once you’ve been disabled, you’re not getting disability insurance again. Your story’s written. So it’s kinda one of those moments where it’s like, that’s a great point for me to say, that just drives me to reach out to the doctors while they’re younger, before they get disabled, while they’re still fairly healthy, just say, hey, gotta get this right the first time because of how much it affects. And there’s so many small decisions, true own-occupation, is it taxable or not, all those kinds. There’s riders and benefits. And getting back to our group coverage thing really quickly, we already talked about being taxable. It’s not true own-occupation coverage.

Dr. Z:  Oh, it’s not?

Matt:  Well, think about this. That’s why I went down the true own-occupation route. Kinda bring it back full circle here. So think about this. Your employer gives you benefits, right? Does disability insurance benefit you while or after you’re benefiting them?

Dr. Z:  Does disability insurance benefit you while or, it’s after you’re benefiting them.

Matt:  After.

Dr. Z:  Yeah, because you’ve paid their premiums, yeah.

Matt:  And you’re no longer working there,

Dr. Z:  Right.

Matt:  More than likely. That’s what I’m saying. So they’re paying for a benefit that more than likely will only kick in and benefit you after you no longer benefit them.

Dr. Z:  Right, and in fact, you are now a hole in their staffing.

Matt:  Yeah, exactly, exactly. So if they have a choice to buy the absolutely cheapest, crappiest disability insurance policy that they can buy for the group, versus really going out of their way to knock it out of the park, so if you get disabled, you’re gonna have this true own-occupation, you know, everything’s great. They’re gonna go cheap. And it’s just the nature of the beast. And so that’s why cognitively it should make sense. Of course the benefit’s not gonna be top of the line coverage, it’s gonna be kind of bottom of the barrel stuff.

Dr. Z:  But do some of these groups like actually do self-insurance, where they’re actually covering it directly through their own–

Matt:   I mean very, very few

Dr. Z:  Very few. So just the biggest–

Matt:  Because it’s so inexpensive to buy one of those not good disability policies, and go, hey, look. And to tell you the truth, there’s disability insurance salespeople out there that sell these group policies and they make it sound good. And I talk to employers all the time, their benefits person, their HR person says, oh no, it’s true own-occupation. It’s a great policy, look at this. It takes me about two minutes to look at their contract and say, here’s where it says it’s not, here’s all of this. and go through it. And the worst part, probably doctors don’t realize too, is they don’t own that policy. And so when they leave an employer, it’s gone. And let’s say, disability insurance is fairly, it’s fairly sensitive to your health, in the sense that if you have health issues, if they’re not gonna kill you, life insurance will still give you really great rates. Disability insurance is pretty sensitive to it. So let’s say you even had some minor health history while you’re at that employer, you might end up with really high rates or not able to even get coverage, after you leave that employer.

Dr. Z:  Can’t even get it.

Matt:  When their coverage is taken away from you.

Dr. Z:  So this is another red flag. If you lose your mobility, potentially, if you change employers, and no one wants to be stuck in a particular job and feel trapped because they got good insurance and they can’t. You know, it’s like health insurance, you know, if you lose your health insurance if you change employers or something, it’s the same thing with disability. And the idea that then that, first of all, it’s not portable. Second of all, if you have a pre-existing condition that’s developed or something that’s happened, it’s gonna be harder to insure you. And you’re saying it’s more sensitive actually, which makes sense, to preexisting conditions or existing medical issues because you’re more likely to be disabled than to die. And so life insurance is easier to get. So, okay, so then let’s bring it back to this. When should you get disability insurance, and how does it scale with you throughout your life? And this is why you’re so passionate about hitting people when they’re young. Not because you’re trying to make a bunch of money off them, but that’s the best time to buy it.

Matt:  Yeah, in fact, I’ll tell you a quick story here. We went to some of the insurance companies and talked them into allowing us to sell smaller policies, like really small policies. And we made almost nothing off of them. And it takes up the same amount of time as selling a big policy. But the reason we did it is because it was right for the young doctors to get their foot in the door, to lock in their rates, their ability to increase the coverage. It was the right thing to do to let them get those small policies. So the answer is, when doctors say, well when should I buy a disability insurance policy? The answer is the day before you get disabled. So that’s the answer. I mean, literally, right? I mean, I know it’s kind of tongue in cheek.

Dr. Z:  But no, it makes sense.

Matt:  If you knew you were gonna get disabled, don’t buy it ahead of time.

Dr. Z:  One day before.

Matt:  Buy it one day before you get disabled. But because we don’t have the crystal ball and we don’t know, the younger you are, the healthier you are, typically. A lot of times our income and our health go in opposite directions over time. So when you’re the healthiest and the youngest, you can lock in really great rates, they last the rest of your career, like they stay level. You can get discounts while you’re in training that aren’t available later on. And those are legit. I mean, some people say, oh, it’s just a sales tactic. No, there’s literally discounts in training you get for being a resident or fellow. They want you to buy it early.

Dr. Z:   Yeah because there’s a longer area under the curve they’re getting premiums. But you’re locking in something that, again. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matt:  So, you know, if you’re a doctor and you’re buying, your first year out of training and you’re trying to buy this policy right before you leave so you get your training program discounts, you might be able to get $5,000 a month in coverage for $200 a month or something like that. If you are 45 years old trying to get the same 5,000 a month in coverage, it might be $400 a month. So it’s a big difference in price. But if you lock in that $200 a month price, that’s literally the price you pay for that 5,000 of coverage until you’re 65 or whenever you decide to get rid of your disability policy. So locking it in young means better rates. If you’re healthy, there’s fewer exclusions and issues and things like that. So, you know, that’s, you know I know that it sounds, and that’s why we really try to help the young doctors, because this is the most critical time to get it. Plus, when are you most financially vulnerable?

Dr. Z:  When you’re younger?

Matt:  Yeah, so if you were, if you were 34 years old, you still have $150,000 worth of loans and you’re making the smallest salary you’re probably gonna make over the course of your career and something happened, you’re not only the most financially vulnerable but you get the longest period of time over which you’ve got to provide some income somehow and live off of something. So we think it’s not only important because of rates and all that kind of stuff, but literally the most danger is early on in your career.

Dr. Z:  So walk me through something. Let’s pretend I’m a 20, let’s say a 30 year old surgeon, just grad general surgeon graduating from residency. I’m Doogie Howser, I finished a little early. I’m gonna, you know, maybe I’m gonna make 300 grand a year as a general surgeon somewhere. And what would it look like if I’m signing up now for a disability policy? How would they test me? Would I have to do a medical exam? What do you think a ballpark premium would be? How much coverage would I get? How would you think about me?

Matt:  It’s a great question. So first of all, you want to look at all six big companies, we call them the big six because they do that true own-occupation coverage.

Dr. Z:  Right. And by the way, you guys do that for people if they request a quote or something.

Matt:  Yeah, we actually, we just compare them side by side and go through. And, you know, honestly, we used to say we’re unbiased, we don’t say that anymore because we’re biased on behalf of the doctor, right? So a doctor comes to us, and part of why they want us is not just to give them unbiased analysis, but to actually say, hey, you for a while here in residency took antidepressants. This one company does better than anybody else at not grilling you over that, not killing you, actually giving you coverage. So we actually do add some value add bias into it based on each individual doctor’s situation. So we’re not biased in the fact that it’s not like we get paid by one company more than the other or anything like that. But we just have thousands and thousands of case studies to say, hey, we can actually help you narrow in on the best one. The reason we do that is because a lot of doctors will go to someone who has a bias towards a company for no reason. They’ll apply for a policy and get denied by that insurance company. And if you get denied by an insurance company, more than likely all the rest of them will deny you, even if would have given you a policy previously.

Dr. Z:  Wow!

Matt:  So who you apply to is a huge deal.

Dr. Z:  So it’s not a, oh, I can just keep reapplying. You have to do it mindfully from the beginning.

Matt:  You don’t get declined, but there are some companies out there declining people for reasons they shouldn’t. And so you get that one decline on the books and it’s gonna be very difficult to get any more coverage.

Dr. Z:  And again, this speaks to this idea that we’ve stigmatized, say, something like mental illness.

Matt:  I brought that up on purpose.

Dr. Z:  Yeah, you take antidepressants in residency, medical school, it’s in your chart, they see it, and now suddenly you’re a higher risk for disability.

Matt:  You have to be very careful when applying for disability insurance if you have any type of history like that, absolutely.

Dr. Z:  In which case again, it’s good to have a guidance from somebody who’s a specialist in medical stuff. And again, I am not trying to shill your thing, but I think the reason I really wanted you on the show is exactly that, that nobody is fighting specifically for doctors and healthcare professionals, and it’s a minefield.

Matt:  It’s a minefield.

Dr. Z:  I didn’t know any of this stuff.

Matt:  That’s what I’m saying. We talk to doctors who are in their 50s, we talk to doctors who are in their 30s, and all of them say, I don’t know this stuff. And it’s not because they’re not intelligent. It’s not because they don’t care. It’s literally because they just haven’t encountered someone who will guide them, who will help them to know these things. So once you know these things, it actually becomes pretty clear. In fact, when we get finished with our analysis, a lot of times the doctors will say, what do you think? Which one do you think? And you know, nine times out of 10, they get it right. So it’s really, it’s about the information, it’s about knowing these kinds of things. So back to your scenario.

Dr. Z:  So my surgical case.

Matt:  So your surgical case.

Dr. Z:  I’m this 30 year old Doogie, gonna make 300 grand, maybe.

Matt:  So I would say that early on in your career, you really wanna protect your after-tax income. And so you start thinking about trade-offs right? So let’s say you’re making 300,000 a year. Let’s say your after-tax income is, I don’t know, 180 K, that’s 15,000 a month, I’d say you want to have 15,000 a month in disability insurance. The problem is that if you have employer coverage, it actually eats into what you can get. So this is kind of technical, but for the numbers folks, they’ll appreciate this. I’m actually a numbers guy. So you want to, in whole, protect 15,000 a month because you want to protect that take-home pay. And so let’s say that your group provides 60% coverage of your income up to $10,000 a month. That’s what most, the majority of them say that, 60% up to 10,000 a month. After taxes and everything, that’s really only about 6,000 a month that they provide. And so that gets counted against you. So what you want to do is you want to get 9,000 a month of your own disability insurance to go on top of and work in conjunction with the 6,000 of group. And then together they provide 15,000 a month in coverage.

Dr. Z:  That makes sense. And again, that would be something that you’d really have to get right. And that’s assuming you’re gonna work for a group and not go out in private practice, et cetera. But still, and that again highlights the difference between the post tax, the taxable disability, the group, and the non taxable disability where you’ve already paid premiums with post-tax money. People don’t, that’s one of the big things that I think a lot of medical people don’t understand is the effect of taxes. They think, I’m making 300 grand a year. Ah-huh, are you? Because you’re actually in the, probably between, if let’s say we live in California, which right now I do, to my detriment. And Comrade Newsom decides he’s gonna keep the 13% state tax, That means that I’m in the 51% tax bracket if I’m in the highest tax bracket. And basically half of what I make is going to taxes, which means you have to think about that when you’re looking at jobs, you go, well, what’s the opportunity cost here? It’s really on, I’m making about half what they’re telling me. So am I gonna bust my butt for an extra 10,000, which is really 5,000, or I’m gonna go to a place that values me, that treats me as a human, where I feel comradery and support, and I have the tools, autonomy, and resources to do my job? No, I’m gonna go there and take that slight pay cut. But it’s really less of a pay cut than you think when you factor in taxes.

Matt:  Yeah, it really is. And like you said, they vary state to state. We even find in Nebraska, believe it or not, it’s a fairly high tax state, because we don’t have a lot of tourism or a lot of things like that.

Dr. Z:  Oh, interesting.

Matt:  So, property taxes are really high. There are people who literally leave Nebraska and can pay for their home out of the taxes they saved by moving to some of these really low-tax states. So you have to be really careful about these kinds of things. And I know, look, look, everyone watching this right now is saying, boy this is technical. There’s a lot of numbers, a lot of technical stuff. And that’s just the nature of the beast, right? There’s a lot of technical things, a lot of definitions, a lot of different things, but that’s why it’s so important to get these things right the first time. You don’t want to get it wrong, and then after some health history or after some more education, then you decide to do it right, because then there’s things that are wrong. Your rates are higher, you may not be able to get coverage, all these types of things. It’s one of those bedrock things, those foundational things in your financial life that you want to get right the first time, as early as you possibly can.

Dr. Z:  Again, this is something that I got wrong. I was offered this thing, I didn’t understand it, I was confused, I was busy, and I was like, nah, nah, nah. And I ended up with my group plan, and knock on wood, nothing happened during that time. And now I’m in a place, there is a point in your life, right, where disability insurance maybe becomes less essential.

Matt:  That’s why I recommended getting, you know, protecting your full after-tax income when you’re young. At some point in time you start making a transition and you’re like, hey, how much am I putting into this? What’s my investment in this? What would I get? How many years do I have left? What do I have built up in savings? Do I have any debt? There’s that calculation that happens over time, but I can say the calculation doesn’t look good when you’re early in your career. It looks much better as you get older. And what we see doctors do is they typically just taper it off. And eventually in their 50s, sometimes, they’re really thinking about maybe not even having it. And that’s totally fine. I mean, we are not purists with disability insurance, saying, keep it for the whole, till you’re 65 years old. It’s an individual thing, depending how financially free you are and autonomous and everything. But early on it’s really key.

Dr. Z:  So what has COVID done to changes in this kind of insurance? Because I would imagine that with this massive disaster, there’s a lot of people filing disability, a lot of changes, a lot of people losing income in general. What’s the deal here? Unfortunately you can’t use disability insurance to cover that your practice at the close because no one’s coming for your elective procedures.

Matt:  Right, right. So doctors are asking the wrong questions when it comes to COVID and insurance. So this is kind of an interesting topic to me. A lot of them are asking, are the rates getting higher? Or are we being denied or declined at a higher rate? And, that might be intuitive, but it’s actually been a, I don’t even know, an accelerator of innovation in the insurance world. And so here’s the main things that have happened. Now, there’s some things like if you test positive while you’re applying for insurance, yeah, they’re gonna make you wait. You know, and they’re not necessarily gonna deny you or decline you, but they’ll make you wait. But most of the things have been positive from COVID. So here’s an example. Most of the companies, during COVID, since about March or so, have stopped requiring blood and urine. They’ve quit doing the labs, they quit doing the physicals. Now, if they find something along the way that requires that, they find out you have some things in your medical records that they’ll go, they’ll ask you to do it, but for the most part people are able to get disability insurance now without getting stuck and without having to go through a labs or physical. So that’s a great thing. Because not only is it a pain, but it actually causes some surprises every once in a while. Some readings come back, findings come back they weren’t expecting, it throws things off. So that’s happening. When it comes to underwriting, that’s the period after you apply, sometimes it takes them a month or two to actually get their ducks in a row, evaluate you as a risk and decide to give you coverage and for what price. Underwriting has been shortened tremendously because they’re using things. They’re using electronic medical records and companies like human API that are out there trying to speed up this process to be like almost instant, where they can see the pertinent medical records almost instantly. There there’s stuff that was probably two or three or four years out for a lot of these companies that they’ve forced into the last six months. So what you’re finding is that with disability insurance in particular, it’s easier to get a policy right now. They want the business. So, you know, a lot of them are struggling. Not struggling, but yeah, they’re struggling a little bit. So they want the business. So where they might’ve been a little picky with you earlier on, or before this, they may accept little bit better now, not give you quite as much hassle about medical history, and things are faster. So it’s actually become a more conducive environment to getting a good policy at better rates and faster because of COVID. It’s forced the insurance companies to, it’s a dinosaur industry. They’re super old. I can tell you stories, it’s brutal. But they’ve gotten much, much better, much faster, and they’ve innovated because of COVID.

Dr. Z:  So this may be a time to strike, especially if you’re fresh out of residency, right?

Matt:  Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. And not only that, but so, the six true own-occupation companies, I want to float this out there just because if I never get to talk to any of these people who are watching the videos and these doctors, I want them to know these six. Because if anything, I want to steer them away from not getting the six. So the six companies that do true own-occupation coverage are Principal, Standard, Ameritas, Guardian, Ohio National and Mass Mutual.

Dr. Z:  Okay, so those are, people can rewind and see that we’ll have a transcript of this thing. Perfect.

Matt:  So are the six. And so if you’re getting, if you’re getting anything from let’s say a Northwestern company, that’s a mutual company. Or if you’re getting from any other companies besides those big six, it’s not true own-occupation coverage. And there’s Mutual of Omaha is trying to get into it. So there may be seven here this year. I think their policy probably is, we just have no history with them.

Dr. Z:  Now the business end of this, right. Is, how do you actually help people through this? Like, what do you do? Like, oh, I’m gonna put a link in the bottom here to go to your website, get a quote from you guys, et cetera. And I want people to use you because I like you. I actually think you care, right? And honestly, I’ve learned so much just sitting here talking to you, that if I had known it then, I would have had that policy. And luckily I didn’t get disabled, but I could have easily. I tell you I’m such a ding dong, it could have gone any way, man. I mean, do they look at your hobbies, by the way, when you’re–

Matt:  They do, some of them. They’ll look at some things like, are you. What’s really funny, people say, well, I rock climb. That may not be a problem. Depending on if you go with an instructor or do you go with groups? Are you free climbing? Do you have, they asked you some really detailed questions. So don’t think just because you have certain hobbies, it doesn’t preclude you.

Dr. Z:  Because, right. Right, right. Because I mean, I cook meth.

Matt:  Oh yeah.

Dr. Z:  And the thing is, sometimes the stuff explodes. Sometimes you have to try your own supply and you lose teeth.

Matt:  I hear ya.

Dr. Z:  And then if I lose teeth, I can’t dictate. Which means my own occupation is, that’s all I do is talk. So I just wanted to make sure just for my own benefit, because it’s never too late. So all that joking aside, they click through the link and they engage with you, what do you do? How do you help them?

Matt:  Here’s what we know. We know that disability insurance is complicated, and that busy doctors don’t have necessarily the time to learn the things they need to know to make these kinds of decisions quickly. And times of the essence, right? Time is money for all of us, for doctors, for financial people. I mean, time is money and it’s in short supply, especially with my three kids at home and everything, times never been shorter in supply for me. But, so what we do is, if they click on that link, they’re going to, within 24 hours or so, very quickly, we’re gonna turn it around, we’re gonna have a report that shows them all six of those true own-occupation options side-by-side. And then just like I’ve done here with you today, we take a 30 minute time with one of our consultants, they go through and they just educate you. And the compliments that we get, so we collect NPS scores, net promoter scores. We want to know.

Dr. Z:  We did that at our clinic, yeah.

Matt:  So it’s a great scoring, would you promote us or not? And we have a super high score. It’s really high for our industry. I think it’s because we go through and we educate the doctor.

Dr. Z:  So wait, so for the insurance industry, so I’m thinking a high score is like 5%?

Matt:  Yeah. You’re about right.

Dr. Z:  Yeah, no, it’s true. Insurance industry net promoter scores are typically 30% or lower.

Matt:  That’s right. We’re right around, we’re in the 70s.

Dr. Z:  That’s ridiculous.

Matt:  That’s ridiculous.

Dr. Z:  You guys don’t understand how incredibly high customer support, meaning customer satisfaction that is. So that says something.

Matt:  And we’re proud of that. I mean, I think it’s because we take an educational approach to it. So a doctor can literally click on the link, take five minutes to enter in some information. We do ask a few questions to make sure we get accurate quotes, but it’s for their benefit. And then within 24 to 48 hours, they’re talking to someone who’s met with thousands of doctors and walked through this, they’re all experienced, and they’re just walking them through and educating them. And at the end of it, it’s not like, hey, we have this one we’re trying to push on you or anything like that. We have doctors walkway all the time, but we literally take them through. And I’ll tell you, most of the doctors by the end say, I see the importance, I’m empowered enough to make a good decision. And then we use all electronic applications and all the stuff, we make it super simple and easy. And that’s our whole goal. If we can make it simple, easy, fast and educational, doctors make good decisions and get things done.

Dr. Z:  I love it.

Matt:  That’s what we’re trying to help them do.

Dr. Z:  And you do life insurance too.

Matt:  We do life insurance. So life insurance isn’t quite as nuanced as disability insurance. There’s no such thing as a true own-occupation death. Right, I mean, you’re either dead or alive and the insurance company’s either paying you or not. With disability insurance, you’ve got to worry about these definitions and everything. So we really hone in on the disability insurance, but we absolutely, we help with the life insurance as well.

Dr. Z:  Yeah, another thing that comes up, I think that our audience will be interested in, is as you expand out from physicians and get to the other healthcare professionals, I think nurses, for example, have a, probably a big disability need. There’s a lot of injuries on that. Well, some of that’s workman’s comp, some of that’s disability, it’s kind of a little bit gray. So would you just say, click the link and see if you can provide help?

Matt:  Yeah, I mean, there’s no obligation, right? So our whole goal is to get the word out, just like you said. And so if we’re taking this really complex thing and making it simple, easy, and fast for the doctors to learn about, then it’s their decision. You know, if they want to get it done, which typically we’re going to recommend, we’ll say this is probably a good idea for you. And they see that. And so a lot of them will do it, but that’s it. We just want the opportunity to individualize the things I’ve told you here today in general, individualize it to the person and allow them to make the decision for themselves.

Dr. Z:  That’s awesome. Now this is what I want to really ask you, because insurance is fascinating.

Matt:  Yeah.

Dr. Z:  But it’s essential. It’s essential. It’s essential. Would you be willing to come back and teach us, physicians and healthcare professionals, more financial stuff? Because I feel like this is a huge unmet need that you already have talked about. And if you’re willing to give a little bit of yourself, I’d love to have you on to do that.

Matt:  Sure. Sure, I mean, the whole goal, right, is to get the word out. And so if that’s something we can do, we would absolutely want to do that.

Dr. Z:  That’s awesome. So Matt Wiggins from Pattern. We’ll share the link. You guys, I learned a lot today. Like it’s a little, I’m getting this little fear of missing out that I never got disability insurance, Which is ridiculous because it’s insurance. And yet, you know, here we are. So do me a favor. If you’re interested in this stuff, click through the link, I’ll put it in the description on my website, et cetera. If you think this is useful, share it with people, because we just don’t get this education, and it’s so important. And I want to thank Matt for coming all the way out from Nebraska to talk this. And we’re gonna go have lunch in the beautiful sunny Bay Area before it goes on full lockdown.

Matt:  Looking forward to it.

Dr. Z:  At least we’re nicely distanced.

Matt:  Yeah, I hear you. Well hey, thanks for letting us share it too. I mean, this is one of those things that really we’re passionate about. If you can’t hear it in my voice, we are very passionate about this. And we know that everybody thinks their job is the most important thing, what they’re concerned about really is. But I think it’s a little step further for this. I think if you insure your income, and if you do that as a doctor, just the whole wellbeing side of things, the whole feeling peace of mind and being able to do what you want to do, not be worried about that. It just absolutely adds to that. And if we can play a small part, we know we’re not the huge part, you know, wellness is such a big topic and wellbeing, and there’s all these people taking different angles at it and what’s gonna help and all this kind of stuff. If we can just take our small little sliver piece of the pie and help in that way, that’s what drives us. That’s what gets us up in the morning, is as doctors make better decisions, lives are changed. And so that’s what we’re all about. So I just appreciate you letting us use your platform to get that word out. And if we can help in any way individually with any of the listeners and watchers, we want to.

Dr. Z:  And you know, honestly, I’ll move a little metaphysical side of this, our goal is to create empowered healthcare professionals that can create a grassroots ground-up transformation of healthcare, and they can’t do that if they’re financially unstable, if they’re afraid, if they’re losing income because they got hurt and living in fear. And this is a way to do that, so thank you.

Matt:  Absolutely, it’s the airplane thing, right? You always put your mask on first and then give your mask and help your kids or anybody else, right?

Dr. Z:  We’re the worst at that.

Matt:  Yeah, yeah, doctors are so altruistic and they’re smart and they want to help people, everything. They’re the ones grabbing the mask and giving it to other people and then they’re passing out. Then they’re not helping then. So yeah, sometimes you have to do that to really be effective at helping other people and reaching goals of helping people.

Dr. Z:  I’m with you brother. All right, guys, share this video and we are out.