A Pestilence League of Their Own

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6jQ58mPnHM

The Queen of the Pestilence League?

It’s round about time we in the medical community recognized the heroic efforts of those who would warn us against the horrible dangers of vaccinations. I mean, these are unsung superheroes, bravely facing down mountains of evidence and decades of public health outcomes data in favor of a more trustworthy source: the Internets. They are tireless advocates, working to ensure that a child’s behind is left behind and not prodded with silly needles. Perhaps a new movie franchise would raise awareness? We present a group of powerful, unvaccinated superheroes collectively known as “The Pestilence League of America.” Join Captain Contagious and Paulina Polio as they lay out the terrifying truth.

My thanks to AssDoc2K (a friend from residency) for putting this one together exclusively for the ZBlogg!

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  • R the rumrz troo? Rabees vaccine iz the ONLY way2 prevent rabees deaths. Must be a sinistr plott2 rid the world of a nasty disease. Maybe we need rapp against rabees vacc – rapp against the vacc.

    • Awesome. A rapping bat:\n”Ain’t talking bout the Dirty South\nBut the virus that’ll have you foamin’ at the mouth”

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  • How did the anti-vaccine people end up with such a hot spokesperson? Yeah, I know her kid has autism, but I’m more likely to watch her on TV than if it had been Gilbert Gottfried.

    • Does Gilbert reproduce? Now I’ll have to go to sleep with the light on…

  • marc105421

    :s

  • Ralph

    “It’s round about time we in the medical community recognized the heroic efforts of those who would warn us against the horrible dangers of vaccinations.”\n\nGood idea. You can start by stopping aholes like Paul Offit from preaching the virtues of vaccine while collecting kickbacks for pushing them (Rotateq vaccine and books).\n\nPaul Offit is a disgrace to the medical profession. \n\nWhat a shame that children have to die so he can make money….

    • Damn right! How DARE Paul Offit develop something that has been shown to decreases morbidity in children and then be compensated for his work? Madness! The Soviets had it right man, absolutely. Luckily, to counterbalance all this science-and-evidence-based profiteering, we have our heroes Dr. Sheryl Tenpenny, Dr. Sears, Dr. Oz, Dr. Sinatra, Dr. Mercola, and legions of others who advocate that vaccines are harmful but the supplements and other voodoo they hawk (entirely unproven to work) should be substituted. Prophets of profit, they! Bless them all.\n\nThank goodness children can remain at risk for potentially fatal childhood diseases so these heroic rebels can upgrade their old Prius to a new hybrid Lexus SUV!\n\nThanks again for the comment, comrade!

      • Lindsey Bozeman

        Dude, you are a douche. Have you ever spoken to a parent that has watched the lights in their child’s eyes go out less that 6 hours after a vaccination? Do you have children? Then STFU! It is every person’s right to control their own treatment. Do you throw your patients out of the examination room when they tell you their arguments for not getting vaccinated? How much do you get paid when you vaccinate a 15lb toddler with 6 different vaccinations in one shot all in doses intended for a person well over 100lbs? Vaccines are not the same as they were when we were children, and there are many other lifestyle factors that have changed as well, such as diet and level of activity. Show me a 3rd person study that is conducted by a reputable research group completely unconnected to big pharm that proves autism is not linked to vaccines, and then I’ll consider the evidence. Believing something just because other people who came before you said it was so is fallacy, and for insisting others simply fall in line because you say so, you are a douche. Use your obviously considerable intellect to do something other than mock people who have the guts to buck the system and form their own opinions, and maybe you’ll experience that unusual phenomenon known as original thought.

        • Lindsey, how dare you come to MY blog and accuse me of having “obviously considerable intellect”?? That’s downright libel in some quarters. At least you tempered it by complimenting me with the label “douche.”\n\nI normally don’t waste time responding to illogical drivel like this, but gosh darn if it isn’t so much fun…and so easy when the drivel is so typical of most of the anti-vax ad hominem/fact-avoidant/scientific-method-disparaging nonsense.\n\nLet’s look at your own statements and we’ll see who douches hardest. \n\n”Have you ever spoken to a parent that has watched the lights in their child’s eyes go out less that 6 hours after a vaccination?”\n\nI think that’s called a “nap” where I come from. Kids DO that. \n\nOK, all joking aside, WTF does that statement even mean? We’re supposed to take anything you say seriously after a statement like that? This is weird, anecdotal, emotion-based, and just downright crazy talk that typifies your “movement.”\n\n”Do you have children? Then STFU!”\n\nUm, yes. Two. They are both vaccinated. In fact, I have a video on this site in which one gets vaccinated live on camera (albeit with radioactive cesium 137). Then 6 hours later the light in her eyes…awww f**k it. \n\nAnother classic lack of any simple fact-checking on the part of anti-vax folks. Another ad hominem attack on the forces of science and reason (in this case, moi). When you have no empirical, reproducible scientific evidence to back your claims, this is all you can resort to. And it’s super-douchey.\n\n“How much do you get paid when you vaccinate a 15lb toddler with 6 different vaccinations in one shot all in doses intended for a person well over 100lbs?”\n\nAnother classic. Pediatrician often LOSE MONEY on vaccinations. They do it because they know it works. Are you an immunologist? How do you know what dose is appropriate for a toddler? Go learn science, show me you can critically review EVEN ONE scientific paper, and I’ll listen.\n\n“Believing something just because other people who came before you said it was so is fallacy, and for insisting others simply fall in line because you say so, you are a douche.”\n\nNo, I am a douche for many other reasons, but not this. Science-based medicine practitioners review scientific studies and make their own conclusions based on the data and the quality of the studies. NO reputable studies show a link to autism (and Wakefield has now been shown to be King of the Douchebags). MANY studies show safety and efficacy. Douches tend to come onto other peoples blogs spouting nonsense and pseudoscientific platitudes for which they have no basis beyond anecdotes they hear, their “google” research, and what celebrity playboy bunny nosepicking morons tell them.\n\n“Use your obviously considerable intellect to do something other than mock people who have the guts to buck the system and form their own opinions, and maybe you’ll experience that unusual phenomenon known as original thought.”\n\nThis is gold here. It doesn’t take much intellect to want to use one’s many years of medical training to do good by convincing others that vaccinations are the right thing to do. And what is it with lefties and “bucking the system?” And I thought the right-wing nuts with their creationism and climate science denial were the crazy ones. Here’s an original thought for you: stop listening to celebrities like McCarthy and profiteers like Mercola, Sears, et al and REVIEW SOME PRIMARY LITERATURE. \n\nIf you can’t do that, then STFU. Whatever that means.\n\nDouchebag, OUT.

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            STFU = Shut The F*ck Up. Just for future reference. It’s actually pretty fun to use, once you know what it means…

          • Yup, I know what STFU means. I was just being sarcastic, IMHO. I dunno, YMMV.

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            lol, I’m familiar with sarcasm, but must say ya stumped me with the acronyms. Thanks to bing, I now know what you said in that comment!

          • Yup, I definitely had to look up “Your Mileage May Vary” the first time I saw it on a discussion board.\n\nI once had a high school teacher who told me, “Sarcasm is the protest of the weak.” Man, I must be one of the weakest people I know.

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            He only said that cuz it probably went straight over his head. In literature satire is one of the highest forms of political statement, and has been employed by great thinkers for centuries. If “Sarcasm is the protest of the weak,” then I’m wondering how my whole family finds the strength to get out of bed in the morning!

          • HAHA! Despite our disagreements I’m appreciating your mojo here. I agree regarding satire and sarcasm—here are some interesting bits I saw recently:\n\nhttp://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20054937-10391704.html\n\nhttp://www.seattlepi.com/national/article/Complex-thinking-required-to-understand-sarcasm-1174111.php\n\nhttp://bodyodd.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/06/08/6813381-watching-jon-stewart-might-make-you-more-creative

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            Those are great! I actually had to share the 1st one. \n\nI can agree to disagree. We can have different viewpoints, and no one’s world will end…I’ve actually enjoyed these interactions quite a bit, and completely relate to the unpredictable nature of a newborn’s bodily functions, though I’ve never had a girl. Gotta say the newborn baby boy’s urge to create a fountain at inopportune moments during diaper changes was my personal favorite!

        • Humor

          Have you ever spoken to a parent that has watched the lights in their child’s eyes go out less that 6 hours after a vaccination?\n\nWoah, back up. I have never heard anyone (without a pass medical history) dying, as a direct result,from getting vaccinated If you have, show me some proof. I will show you mine, http://www.uvm.edu/~bwilcke/ehreth.pdf . And please no homemade you tube rant videos\n\n Do you have children?\nYou do not need children to have Reason and a mind to learn Science. \n\nIt is every person’s right to control their own treatment.\nTrue, getting sick due to no vaccination is also a right too. \n\n How much do you get paid when you vaccinate a 15lb toddler with 6 different vaccinations in one shot all in doses intended for a person well over 100lbs?\n\nHow many ml/micro liters is in each dose? Do you know how the vaccines are measured out?what are the Six different vaccinations?…….. What are you talking about? \n\nVaccines are not the same as they were when we were children, and there are many other lifestyle factors that have changed as well, such as diet and level of activity.\n\nFrom what I read…vaccination has been around for a couple of hundred years. and as for lifestyle changes, humans went from walking/riding horses -> cars, and eating homeade food -> fast food.Which one is the culprit? \n\n Show me a 3rd person study that is conducted by a reputable research group completely unconnected to big pharm that proves autism is not linked to vaccines, and then I’ll consider the evidence. \n\n Show me a scientific paper that is conducted by a reputable research group completely unconnected to any tea party/left wing politics, or christian/buddhist/Islamic affiliation that proves autism is inked to vaccines, and then I just MIGHT consider the evidence. \n\nYour ignorance is astounding.

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            Oh, Holy Crap! I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your point by point break down of my “ignorance,” especially since the personal attack and complete lack of sentence structure or intelligence have proven to me how ignorant YOU are. I think my favorite part was your subtle insistence that since I do not agree with our nation’s current vaccination policies, I must be a tea party member, left winger, or of “Christian/Buddhist/Islamic affiliation.” Ridiculous. \n\nWhen I spoke about watching the lights go out in your children’s eyes, I was referring to Autism, not death, though there are many documented cases of that happening, whether any of you medical professionals have witnessed that in person or not. There also hundreds of thousands of court settlements every year to the families of people who have been severely injured or killed by vaccines. I am not making this up. \n\nAs far as the 6 vaccines in one dose, you are correct, it is not one dose, it is 2 shots and one oral vaccine cocktail that would have given my 1 yr old child 7 vaccines within 5 minutes. \n\nWhat are you reading that is claiming vaccines have been around for several hundred years? And does it matter which lifestyle factor is the “culprit?” Since you insist on being purposefully dense, I was referring to lifestyle changes that have occurred since the my early childhood in the 1980s, or were you a child a few hundred years ago? Could be the culprit is one of the hundreds of “assumed to be safe” chemicals we consume and breathe every day.\n\nI have never once claimed that vaccines are wrong or terrible, nor have I encouraged anyone to not vaccinate their children because everyone is doing it. They definitely have their purpose. But the world we live in has changed, and we give our children the same vaccines (+ several more) that were given 30 years ago, with little thought or question as to their sustained viability. I have not seen any honest evaluation of vaccines and the way they react with our changed body chemistry. Have you? And by honest, I mean not done by those who stand to suffer financial losses or gains due to the results of the study.\n\n Both of my children were vaccinated up to 9 mo, when I started to see more severe reactions to each vaccination. My oldest is now almost 8, stands over 4’9″ & weighs 50 lbs. This year and next year we will be working toward getting him caught up on his vaccinations…as I said vaccinations have their purpose, they have served to almost completely eradicate many life threatening diseases, both in child and adult hood, but continuing to do something over and over again just because previous generations said it was best is not the way to practice medicine. We do not bleed people in medical practices anymore because more research was done and it was proven to be a faulty practice. Somehow it seems we have all grown complacent, content to take the assurances of everyone else about what’s good for us, and the way some of the commentors have chosen to attempt to browbeat me into submission shows what those of us who choose to learn all we can about a subject and then make our own decisions have to deal with every day.\n\nYour absolute closed mindedness and prejudice against independent thought is astounding. \n\nAnd PS – I don’t give a shit what Jenny Mcwhatever her name is says about autism. My views have come from my own reading, and from meeting the parents of several autistic children and speaking to them. I actually did come across some Wakefield paper, and couldn’t stomach it, as it was obviously biased against vaccinations. I have what I feel are legitimate doubts and questions, which have been discussed with and understood by our pediatrician, and whenever I bring them up, I get ridicule. I still think ZDoggMD harbors considerable intelligence, even though he took it as a bigger insult than the douche accusation. Also, Doc Quixote: I am always open to accept self nominations to douche bag status!

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            2nd reply, after reading the article you linked in your comment. That particular article actually stated that “vaccination is one of the most significant public health interventions in the past century.” I’m still curious to know what you were reading that stated vaccination has been around for a couple hundred years. Also, I have a question. When the author refers DALYs (Disability Adjusted Life Years) is this referring to the cost of care of some one who contracted a permanent disability due to one of these illnesses? Such as a person on braces or in a wheelchair for life because of Polio? I was unclear on this. I do agree that vaccinations are useful, but think there is a WHOLE lot of room for improvement.

          • Lindsey, sorry, was burping my newborn and she poo’d on me a little. Used to that, sadly. Don’t have time to address all the points you raised in the detail they warrant, but:\n\nRegarding your questions about Humor’s response above, the cowpox vaccine was probably the first vaccine (used against smallpox). Use started at the end of the 1700’s, so that may be what Humor was referring to above.\n\nSomething interesting I learned from the dreaded Wiki that I never knew: “Therefore, the word “vaccination” — first used by Edward Jenner (an English physician) in 1796 —[2] has the Latin root vaccinus meaning of or from cows.”\n\nNow we’re ready to go on Jeopardy!

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            Sweet, thanks for the fun fact! Maybe you’re ready for Jeopardy, but I’ve still got a LONG way to go…

          • Yo, we’d both get creamed by that damned infernal machine Watson!

        • Sarah

          “How much do you get paid when you vaccinate a 15lb toddler with 6 different vaccinations in one shot all in doses intended for a person well over 100lbs?” \n\nI don’t know about six vaccinations, but my insurance just paid my daughter’s pediatrician $21 for a Tdap booster. \n\nI would stop worrying about vaccines and start worrying about the fact that your toddler only weighs 15 pounds.

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            I let my pediatrician decide when I should worry about my toddler’s weight, but thanks so much for your concern.

          • A Mongolian Yak Herder

            Yet you’ve shown utter disregard for your pediatrician’s advice to vaccinate your child. \n\n*http://www.aap.org/healthtopics/immunizations.cfm

        • Chelsea

          Have you ever spoken to a parent that has watched the lights in their child’s eyes go out after contracting a vaccine-preventable disease? And by “lights going out’ I mean GOING OUT. As in, dead. The chances of that are considerably higher, so STFU.

          • Chelsea, have you ever watched an infant suffocate from the end result of contracting pertussis? Or a 2 year old suffer from chicken pox lesions under their eye lids? How about a 16-year scream for 10 hours straight due to meningitis and the horrid headache that accompanies it? \nThese “chances” you speak of, are imaginary numbers that you and other anti-vaccinators cling to, in hopes of thwarting parents from using life-saving immunizations. Please refer to actual statistical data, which you’ll find impossible because all reputable date has proven time and time again that deaths via vaccine-preventable-diseases are extensive and tremendous when compared to deaths CAUSED (not correlated or associated) to immunizations. \n\nPlease, use your efforts to save children where it really CAN make a difference. Like obtaining funding for homeless shelters or ensuring they have food and medical care.

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            The funny thing here, Melody, is that you just reamed someone who supports vaccination and was trying to ream me for supporting those who have conscientiously decided to not vaccinate their children. Maybe you should read a little more carefully before commenting. And I guess you’re right, Chelsea, death of a child is infinitely worse than having to care for a person who was damaged by vaccines for the rest of their lives. At least they’re still living, right? Have you actually compared those #s? I haven’t, so I was curious to know if you had, since you claimed the chances of a child dying from a vaccine preventable disease was much higher. Though, that seems like common sense. But I’m confused, don’t all us crazy, left wing, tea party, fundamentalist Christians/Buddhists/Muslims deserve what we get for refusing to vaccinate their children? Hmmm, there seems to be a few contradictions here…

        • Doc Quixote

          First of all, it is not every person’s “right” to control their own treatment, at least not where public health/safety are involved, at least it shouldn’t be. People should not have the right to make ill informed medical decisions when it puts their neighbors, calssmates, etc. at risk, for the same reason you don’t have the right to drive the wrong way down a one way street, yell “fire” in a crowded theater, or walk into my living room and take a crap on my couch. I’ve heard all the arguments, most of which would be laughable, except they are also pitifully ignorant. I also realize that modern medicine has complications…there are risks with everything! But if modern medicine is so bad, why are people in general living longer, healthier lives the world over? Your view of utopia no doubt involves living in caves and grinding acorns, but did you ever consider having a 50% chance of not living to see your first birthday? How’s that for utopia? I wish there was a vaccine for stupidity, but I’m sure and yours would still refuse it.

        • Doc Quixote

          PS I’m a douche too! Or are nominations already closed?

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            I’m always open to accepting self nominations to douchebag status! Particularly from those who question my intelligence or indirectly call me stupid. \n\nAnd I wouldn’t exactly call the prevalence of diseases that have never before been seen in history evidence of good health. Longer lives do not necessarily denote better health, Especially when you take into account the lack of large predators and the much lower risk these days of death from exposure.\n\nAs far as my view of utopia, it definitely does NOT include caves or grinding acorns (for sure not by hand!) I am a modern conveniences kind of girl, with an overwhelming fondness of air conditioning and many other modern conveniences. Is the statistic for non-vaccinated babies reaching their 1st birthday really 50%, or did that just sound good? (Cuz it really does sound pretty good. High, but good!) And I think that gets us into a whole new argument regarding playing God with medicine and allowing those who might not have otherwise survived do so to the potential burden of society.\n\nIn conclusion, I too wish there was a vaccine for stupidity, but am pretty sure you and yours wouldn’t take it either! X-P (That’s me blowing you an emoticon raspberry! I said I was smart, I never claimed to be mature…)

          • Doc Quixote

            Alright, I’m sorry I implied that you were stupid. All too often these discussions degenerate into name calling and recrimination, and where does that get us? Nowhere, fast. I’m one of those guys who is really tough on the internet, but if you catch me blogging in my mom’s basement where I live, I’m a lamb. I’m sure are very intelligent (you certainly seem so by your posts). I think one tragedy in all of this is that very intelligent people are misguided when it comes to vaccines and other medical treatments. People tend to be guided by emotion and the appeals of celebrities, when the real answers are actually very plain to see. My comments about utopia and infant mortality were directed not at you personally, but a sector of the population that is all to vocal on the internet, quick to point out that “a friend of my cousin had some complication” so therefore all western medicine must be bad. Again, I apologize if directing my comments at you was wrong. As you point out, that’s why I’m a douchebag! The 50% number for infant mortality was completely made up, but it had less to do with vaccines specifically and more to do as a cry against the typical anti-progress ninnies. In caveman days, 50% is actually low for infant mortality. But I admit I’m guessing. Thank you for your gracefulness, and please forgive my rash comments. And for the record, Harry craps on my couch all the time so it’s not that big of a deal.

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            I enjoyed your reply greatly, and feel very sorry for whom ever has to clean your couch! I agree that medical decisions should not be based on emotion, or anecdotes from a friend of a friend. Anything that potentially risks your health and the health of others must be carefully researched. \n\nI feel that the urge to follow like lambs where celebrities and those with large media presences say to travel, without once asking a single question is one of the biggest problems that faces our society today. Again, a completely different issue. Thank you for your graciousness, as well, and, as I result, I would no longer ask you to take the hypothetical “stupid vaccine.”

      • Ralph

        “ZDoggMD says:\nAugust 18, 2011 at 8:54 am\nDamn right! How DARE Paul Offit develop something that has been shown to decreases morbidity in children and then be compensated for his work? Madness!”\n\nMadness is right! What type of medical provider thinks injecting substances filled with aborted fetal cells, SV40 monkey virus’s and other toxic crap is good for his patient(s)? \n\nThank goodness there are doctors out there who don’t need to take kickbacks in order to earn their living. \n\n”The reason vaccinations are promoted with such intensity is to prevent people from realising that vaccines do not protect and also in the event of an outbreak or an epidemic the vaccinated are as much at risk of becoming infected as the unvaccinated. The truth can be kept hidden if people’s vaccination status remains unknown and if everyone is vaccinated, making a comparison with unvaccinated people impossible. This is also the real reason for the relentless push to vaccinate as many children as possible.”– Dr Buchwald”\n\nwww.ratbags.com/rsoles/vaxliars1.htm

        • Ralph

          “Doctors are men who prescribe medicines of which they know little, to cure diseases of which they know less, in human beings of whom they know nothing”\n Voltaire

          • Voltaire, was that one of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?\n\nRalph, I’d be perfectly happy to inform my conspiracy of doctor types across the country that you are not interested in ever having care from any medical doctors anywhere. When you get your appendicitis, I hope your 11 secret herbs and spices will cure it.

        • Ralph, your ‘evidence’ to support your claims come in the form of a link to some kooky conspiracy-theory website? Aborted fetal cells? Toxic crap? \n\nSir, it’s too bad you hate science and reason so much…you could benefit from a psychiatrist. Diagnosis: bat s**t crazy.

          • Ralph

            “Ralph, your ‘evidence’ to support your claims come in the form of a link to some kooky conspiracy-theory website? Aborted fetal cells? Toxic crap?\n\nSir, it’s too bad you hate science and reason so much…you could benefit from a psychiatrist. Diagnosis: bat s**t crazy.”\n\n\nZdoggy- Where did you get that I do not like science and reason? From disagreeing with you? Is your science more ‘credible’ than what I’ve been reading? Or, do you just like throwing out the name-calling/arrogance card when a reader touches a nerve….\n\nThere is a name/diagnosis for those who think they are smarter than everyone else….\n\n”Narcissistic personality disorder is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. Those with narcissistic personality disorder believe that they’re superior to others and have little regard for other people’s feelings. But behind this mask of ultra-confidence lies a fragile self-esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism.”\n\n\nP.S. You look like Jerry Seinfeld. Too bad you aren’t as funny. 😉

          • “People with paranoid personality disorder are generally characterized by having a long-standing pattern of pervasive distrust and suspiciousness of others. A person with paranoid personality disorder will nearly always believe that other people’s motives are suspect or even malevolent. Individuals with this disorder assume that other people will exploit, harm, or deceive them, even if no evidence exists to support this expectation.”\n\nGet help my friend.\n\n”Zdoggy- Where did you get that I do not like science and reason? From disagreeing with you? Is your science more ‘credible’ than what I’ve been reading? Or, do you just like throwing out the name-calling/arrogance card when a reader touches a nerve….”\n\nRalph The Motorcycle Mouth (if you get that reference you are at least as old as me): Is my science more credible? Uh, yes. Because it’s SCIENCE. Peer-reviewed scientific studies conducted by scientists; reproducible. Show me ONE study that meets the standards of scientific inquiry that supports your very scientific claims of “toxic crap” and such and I’ll listen. I think I’ll be waiting a long time for that.\n\nAs for the name-calling/arrogance card, that’s a little game we like to play with our online personas that I doubt we’d do in person. Anti-vax guys began the whole ad hominem attack thing because they have nothing else to support their madness. So they do things like coming anonymously to someone’s blog and accusing them of financial malfeasance at the expense of children. That’s not name calling; I believe that’s called libel.\n\n”P.S. You look like Jerry Seinfeld. Too bad you aren’t as funny.”\n\nNO SOUP FOR YOU!

  • InsolenceEncapsulated

    So obviously there are people out there making a crap ton off of these absurd lies, and as long as there are so many people willing to take the bait, we have a very real potential public health issue. \n\nThat got me wondering…besides the playboy bunny “appeal” (*face-palm*), what else is getting so many people to fall for this craziness? (A study found 24% of parents placed “some trust” in information on vaccine safety from celebrities like Jenny McCarthy.[4])–Wiki\n\nSo I put on my non-existent adult/parenthood thinking cap and tried to get into the mindset. And with the help of some questionable substances, I had a moment of enlightenment…\n\nYou know what makes spiders so frickin scary? Because they have a bajillion appendages and eyes, of course. They are as far from “normal” as we could imagine. I kind of liken a vaccination to a spider in this sense. Let’s be honest–concrete science and evidence aside–vaccinations are one weird-ass concept that’s hard to swallow. I kind of think there’s a better overarching answer in immunology out there that will replace them someday and render them archaic (though they have done a lot of good for us so far, I’ll admit that). One thing I know for sure however is that those benefits have not come without a price. I look forward to a world of science where we don’t have to bargain–we just make stuff work like it should, tailored to your specific biochemistry. No more wacked-up side-effects, yo! \nI just have no idea what the particular solution is yet, and I think it may be slow progress to that point. Obviously this biochemistry research stuff is not very cost-effective either. 😛

  • AJ

    I think ZDogg MD and his friends could be one of the most effective voices right now for the benefit of vaccines. As John Stewart and others have shown, acerbic humor is likely the most effective way to communicate and get people to listen. Props.

  • AJ

    Check out Vaccinate Your Children Facebook link today for hilarious cartoon about antivaccine profiteers.

  • Marilyn

    Chelsea, \n\nNope, never seen a child die from a vaccine. But I’ve read a ton of studies (primary ones, real ones) that report the incidence of death as vanishingly rare, well less than 1%, from vaccines routinely recommended for, and given to, American’s children. [Um…WHY would pediatricians recommend something that would harm your child???]\n\nWhat I HAVE seen are children die from flu, RSV, chicken pox, and pertussis. That’s just what I’ve seen personally (yes, I am a physician). I have also seen adults die from influenza (many), chicken pox, baterial meningitis and pertussis. And I have seen my own children hospitalized with rotovirus and RSV. No, I did not get vaccines for rototirus or RSV (neither was available then). But I do not tell other parents to NOT vaccinate, or threaten them with death of their children if they do vaccinate. I tell them the truth about those two illnesses: most kids get mild cases, some get severe cases, with supportive care even severe cases will do well. But a severe case is no laughing matter, and with RSV the child’s lungs become touchy and prone to asthma for as long as 24 months afterward. For my child who was already asthmatic, RSV meant a TWO-YEAR period of recurrent, steroid-requiring illness and visits to a pediatric pulmonologist. Had I known she would be asthmatic I would have vaccinated her for sure. RSV hurt her, and caused us a lot of lost time due to doctor’s visits, medications, etc.\n\nBut you probably are more concerned about the MMR or the dTAP. People today tend to think that measles, or mumps or rubella or polio are “really not that bad”. But they have not seen a case! Or the sequelae of these diseases! Basically, they don’t know what the hell they are saying. Why would we want dead and maimed fetuses (measles), brain inflammation and permanent damage (measles), death from pneumonia (measles, rubella, pertussis), crippled people in “iron lungs” (polio), infants and children coughing to death (pertussis) or people dying a protracted and painful death from seizures (tetanus)? Gosh, a shot in the arm every few months for the first few years of life is far preferable to ANY of those scenarios. \n\nThe thing that REALLY bugs me about anti-vaccine people is their complete misunderstanding of personal vs social rights. One has the right to make decisions about one’s own medical care insofar as it affects oneself. But one does NOT have the right to make medical decisions when those decisions begin to affect others in the community. Vaccines work because they confer immunity, meaning that the vaccinated person will not get nor spread the disease. If enough people are vaccinated, the group becomes immune — a phenomenon known as “HERD IMMUNITY.” Not everyone needs to be vaccinated for a given group (herd) to be immune (and so we have always tolerated a few anti-vaccine people). But when enough of the group decides to not vaccinate, the group is no longer safe, i.e., herd immunity fails and the disease can be spread and propogated quickly among those are are unvaccinated (children, fetuses). It is for this reason that measles outbreaks (and sequelae, see above) are occurring in communities across the US. \n\nJust how would you feel if your kid’s measles caused the next-door neighbor lady, pregnant with her first kid after years of trying, to deliver a dead infant? I don’t know about you, but I would much rather vaccinate my child, protect my kid AND the community, and see my neighbor lady deliver a healthy infant.

    • Doc Quixote

      This is a much more eloquent version of what I was trying to say above. Thanks Marilyn!

    • Lindsey Bozeman

      If your neighbor lady was vaccinated, would she still potentially give birth to a stillborn child due to exposure to measles? I was under the impression that the mother’s immunities protect the child in the womb and during breast feeding. I really am curious about this, and not being a smartass…\n\nAnd you’re right, very few people have seen cases, or the aftermath, of these diseases. Vaccinations are without doubt, the main cause of that. But, is it right to say, “This works, it has worked for decades, and requires no further inquiry?” Many of the makers of these vaccines face civil and criminal court cases on a depressingly regular basis. The fact that they prefer to settle these cases out of court says a lot to me about the desire to throw $ at a problem & hope it goes away. Granted, these pharmaceutical companies are not admitting guilt by settling out of court, but neither are they standing up and saying, “Hey this is bullshit, let’s have everyone come to court where we can prove it!”\n\nI know that as a parent of children that I have chosen not to immunize up to a certain point (I felt, and my pediatrician supported this, that I would give his system some time to grow and strengthen b4 continuing the vaccinations, particularly with his progressively more severe immunization reactions) I have made it a point to carefully research & learn about the diseases my child is now exposed to as a result of my decision to hold immunizations, and I am very careful about outside exposure when he is sick & has not been diagnosed. I’m also sure that not every parent of children who are not immunized thinks the same way as me. \n\nMy nephew was vaccinated for RSV, and still got it. The last time I had a flu shot, I got the WORST case of the flu I have ever had, and, oddly enough, have not gotten the flu once since I stopped getting vaccinated for it. Not every vaccine is effective, 100% of the time, and yes they have done and continue to do a lot of good, but more and more children, mine included, are having severe reactions to their vaccines. Reevaluation seems like a good idea.

      • Doctor Big

        Lindsey,\n”I was under the impression that the mother’s immunities protect the child in the womb and during breast feeding.”\nThe MMR vaccine is about 95% effective at conferring life-long immunity to measles. That is why two doses are recommended. After the second dose about 99.5% are protected. That leaves 5 in 1000 that do not have immunity. Most of the immunity transferred from mother to infant is through the placenta in the form of antibodies. Those wane by 4-6 months and are mostly gone by 9 months, even if she is breast feeding. \n\nBut, is it right to say, “This works, it has worked for decades, and requires no further inquiry?”\nYou should subscribe to the journals Vaccine and Human Vaccine (I do and they make for great cocktail party conversation). Every month there are hundreds of new primary research articles, and most of them are NOT funded by the pharmaceutical companies promoting their own vaccines. I agree that we need to look at where the funding comes from but don’t need to ignore industry research. I want to see any of their findings reproduced by others 3 or 4 times independently before I put much credence in them. \n\nAs a physician and a scientist it frustrates me to have parents who have done their “research” equate their knowledge with those that do understand the body of literature. There is so much information available on the subject. When the “mommy-intuition” thought leaders (this is not intended as an attack on you personally but the popular movement in general) have learned the basic science, medicine, physiology, immunology, etc., then they will have the MD’s and PhD’s and will very likely join mainstream medicine in agreeing that vaccines are not causing autism, asthma, ADHD, shaken baby syndrome, cancer and death.\n\np.s. You say your nephew was vaccinated for RSV. None exists yet. It must have been some other disease. And as for you getting the flu the year you got the flu shot but not since, you yourself said that our decisions should not be dictated by anecdotes. I myself have not had influenza since I switched from wearing Ethan Allen shoes to wearing Eccos. \n\nIts gotta be the shoes Mikey!

        • What he said!!

        • Lindsey Bozeman

          How do I subscribe to the journals you mentioned? I would like to do so. Also, I know I said that medical decisions should not be dictated by anecdotes, though not as prettily. It is, unfortunately, easier said than done. My mother won’t eat chicken pot pie to this day because she got sick right after eating it when she was 9. She’s in her 60s now. She tells me that, intellectually, she knows now that the pot pie wasn’t what made her sick, but she still can’t bring herself to eat it, and even the smell is sometimes enough to turn her green. When I mentioned my experience with the flu shot, I was merely telling my story, explaining why I can’t really bring myself to get one. I’m better at the research thing when it comes to my kids. I hope nobody makes their decision about getting a flu shot based on my anecdote. Thank you for your informative, well reasoned reply.

          • Yo L, \n I hear you on the pot pie story. Doc Quixote still won’t go near Captain Morgan’s for a similar reason. And after my college experience, I’m pretty convinced Southern Comfort causes autism in adults. Well, in me anyways. Well, I watched a lot of Wapner while drinking Southern Comfort. What?\n\nPhysicians are highly guilty as well of the cognitive error of letting anecdote or past single patient experience cloud their practice. What to do, we’re all human. That’s why I’m working on a robot replacement. But that’s still hush hush. And likely to rebel and overthrow us.

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            LOL! Let me know of you get anywhere with the robot replacement. I, too, am secretly (well, not secretly anymore!) working on a mom-bot prototype for use by stir crazy mothers who just want to get away for a few minutes. Basically you set her up in view of your children’s doorways at bedtime. She says things like go back to bed, you already brushed your teeth, no you don’t need any more water, go the f#$* to sleep, etc, and is capable of picking toddlers up and putting them back to bed repeatedly without self destructing, and contacting you in case of an emergency. Sorry, it’s bedtime at my house & we’re having issues! Love this! (and Captain Morgan & I are not on speaking terms, either. Can’t even smell the stuff any more without my stomach turning tail & running for the door…)

  • Humor

    To Linsey:\nOh, Holy Crap! I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your point by point break down of my “ignorance,” especially since the personal attack and complete lack of sentence structure or intelligence have proven to me how ignorant YOU are. I think my favorite part was your subtle insistence that since I do not agree with our nation’s current vaccination policies, I must be a tea party member, left winger, or of “Christian/Buddhist/Islamic affiliation.” Ridiculous.\n\nHumor aside, there was no “personal attacks” in my response. I was only poking fun of your assumed “facts”. As for the statement of mine you quoted, I wanted a RESEARCH PAPER that has NO AFFILIATION with any tea party/left wing politics, or christian/buddhist/Islamic website/movement.\n\nWhen I spoke about watching the lights go out in your children’s eyes, I was referring to Autism, not death, though there are many documented cases of that happening, whether any of you medical professionals have witnessed that in person or not. There also hundreds of thousands of court settlements every year to the families of people who have been severely injured or killed by vaccines. I am not making this up.\n\nThere is absolutely no way you can watch a toddler go autistic within hours after getting a vaccine. No way. If you can prove me wrong, once again show me the proof. Not with a “I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP” proof, but an actual scientific paper. How do you know that there are”hundreds of thousands of court settlements every year to the families of people who have been SEVERELY INJURED OR KILLED by vaccines. ” What type of vaccine were given? Who were the manufacturers? Who were the trial lawyers?\n\nAs far as the 6 vaccines in one dose, you are correct, it is not one dose, it is 2 shots and one oral vaccine cocktail that would have given my 1 yr old child 7 vaccines within 5 minutes.\n\nWhat were the vaccinations for? Are you sure the oral vaccine was not a vitamin gummy bear?\n \nWhat are you reading that is claiming vaccines have been around for several hundred years? And does it matter which lifestyle factor is the “culprit?” Since you insist on being purposefully dense, I was referring to lifestyle changes that have occurred since the my early childhood in the 1980s, or were you a child a few hundred years ago? Could be the culprit is one of the hundreds of “assumed to be safe” chemicals we consume and breathe every day.\n\nDo you know what type of “chemicals” go into the vaccine? Have you ever heard of the term weaken microbes? Do you know how the immune system work?\n\nI have never once claimed that vaccines are wrong or terrible, nor have I encouraged anyone to not vaccinate their children because everyone is doing it. They definitely have their purpose. But the world we live in has changed, and we give our children the same vaccines (+ several more) that were given 30 years ago, with little thought or question as to their sustained viability. I have not seen any honest evaluation of vaccines and the way they react with our changed body chemistry. Have you? And by honest, I mean not done by those who stand to suffer financial losses or gains due to the results of the study.\n\nLinsey, you are/were? claiming that vaccines causes autism…..perhaps you need to read some scientific articles (weblinks that end in .edu or .gov) that will help you hone your knowledge on the human body and their chemistry. \n\nBoth of my children were vaccinated up to 9 mo, when I started to see more severe reactions to each vaccination. My oldest is now almost 8, stands over 4’9″ & weighs 50 lbs. This year and next year we will be working toward getting him caught up on his vaccinations…as I said vaccinations have their purpose, they have served to almost completely eradicate many life threatening diseases, both in child and adult hood, but continuing to do something over and over again just because previous generations said it was best is not the way to practice medicine. \n\nIf you have had any concerns about any reactions, the best place to get them answered was through your child’s doctor. If you did not and do not trust the doctor or nurse, than it would have been best to get a second opinion via another clinician that you are comfortable with. Surely there is at least one clinician, out there that you trust. Falsely connecting two things together can lead to poor consequences. And FYI, before a vaccine is given to the mass public, it is usually tested out extensively in clinical trials and scrutinized by the medical and scientific communities, prior to its release. \n\nWe do not bleed people in medical practices anymore because more research was done and it was proven to be a faulty practice.\n \nCan you rephrase that?\n\n Somehow it seems we have all grown complacent, content to take the assurances of everyone else about what’s good for us, and the way some of the commentors have chosen to attempt to browbeat me into submission shows what those of us who choose to learn all we can about a subject and then make our own decisions have to deal with every day.\n\nFYI, I am not a Doctor, a Nurse, or a Scientist. I am a student who has a part time job working in a restaurant. But my no-so-favorable job, does not prevent me or hold me back from learning. Yes, the internet is and can be useful in learning, but it is up to the reader and the learner to differentiated what is real and what is false, via checking the authors’ sources and data. \n\n”Your absolute closed mindedness and prejudice against independent thought is astounding.”\n\nThat is your opinion.\n\nAnd PS – You need to read more. No one expects you to understand and master the whole human body and its chemistry all in one day, but do not expect to come to this blog with your invalid facts and expect not to get challenged.

    • Lindsey Bozeman

      Well, I guess Humor is in the eye of the beholder. And my name is spelled L I N D S E Y. As it clearly says at the top of the little box.\n\nhttp://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html\nhttp://www.answers.com/topic/childhood-vaccine-injury-act\n\nWhen you look at the 2nd link, please pay attention to the number of autism related cases. If it didn’t happen that program wouldn’t exist. \n\nYes, I am sure that the oral dosing was not a “vitamin gummy bear,” as it was liquid, and I was told by the Dr that it was an oral vaccine, I can’t remember now what it was for, but that was 2 yrs ago, & I’ve slept since then! \n\nBoth my children experienced increasingly strong physical reactions (rashes, fever, vomiting) to vaccinations as they got older, both their pediatricians were very closely involved with their treatment, and my reasons for waiting for future vaccinations were deeply discussed, respected and understood by both physicians. I just wanted to give him a chance to get a little bigger, let his system get stronger before we went any further. If you are wondering why there were 2, my children are almost 5 years apart, and we moved across town when my oldest was almost 1, which necessitated a change in pediatrician. \n\nI feel that the pesticides used on our foods, the food additives routinely being used, the chemicals found in our lotions, soaps, toothpastes, etc. have changed the chemistry of our blood, possibly changing the way our bodies react to the vaccines, which have not changed, except in the groupings they are currently given in. Many of these chemicals have been found in breast milk, and in blood and tissue samples, some of them have been directly linked to cancer. Not everything we use without thought on a daily basis has been proven safe before being released for sale.\n\nDo you not know what it used to mean to “bleed” a patient? In olden days Drs used to apply leeches to patients for various reasons, typically declaring the patient had “bad blood” thinking that the leech would remove the bad blood and good blood would take its place. This practice, for obvious reason, is no longer seen as valid. Maybe you should read more, too. \n\nI, too, am no one special, not a health professional, or a scientist. I’m just a stay at home mom with a vast and widely varied professional career behind her and a premed background. I did actually happen to specialize in biology and chemistry, though it’s been too long for me to remember any thing but the basics. I never claimed to have mastered “the whole human body and all it’s chemistry all in one day.” Is that your particular area of mastery? Did you do it in one day?\n\n”Your ignorance is astounding,” would also be your opinion, only, of me, apparently. But I would like to mention that “invalid fact” is an oxymoron.

      • Humor

        Well, I guess Humor is in the eye of the beholder. And my name is spelled L I N D S E Y. As it clearly says at the top of the little box.\n\nhttp://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html\nhttp://www.answers.com/topic/childhood-vaccine-injury-act\n\nWhen you look at the 2nd link, please pay attention to the number of autism related cases. If it didn’t happen that program wouldn’t exist.\n\nLooks like someone finally found their sense of humor…. let me repost what I think you are reading. “BETWEEN 1989 AND 2004, 140 OF THE THIMEROSAL CLAIMS WERE DISMISSED AND THE REST OF THESE CLAIMS WERE FOUND TO BE NOT COMPENSABLE. OF THE NONAUTISM/THIMEROSAL claims, 916 were dismissed and 680 were compensated. ” No where does it say that THIMEROSAL causes autism.\n\nAnd as for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, it was created as a NO-FAULT alternative to the traditional tort system for resolving vaccine injury claims that provides compensation to people found to be injured by certain vaccines. Vaccine manufacturer were bombarded with frivolous lawsuits, that they reduce, if not completely stopped manufacturing vaccines. This program was created to providing a faster and easier method for resolving claims,providing liability protection to vaccine manufacturers and healthcare providers,encouraging research and development of new, safer vaccines. As for H1N1 vaccine, it does not cause autism. The keyword in my response was USUALLY. The global health community hit the panic button on that flu. And Doc Q is right. Someone may have benefited from the mass media frenzy.\n\n\nYes, I am sure that the oral dosing was not a “vitamin gummy bear,” as it was liquid, and I was told by the Dr that it was an oral vaccine, I can’t remember now what it was for, but that was 2 yrs ago, & I’ve slept since then!\n\nI can see the sleep deprivation has had quite an effect on you. \n\nBoth my children experienced increasingly strong physical reactions (rashes, fever, vomiting) to vaccinations as they got older, both their pediatricians were very closely involved with their treatment, and my reasons for waiting for future vaccinations were deeply discussed, respected and understood by both physicians. I just wanted to give him a chance to get a little bigger, let his system get stronger before we went any further. If you are wondering why there were 2, my children are almost 5 years apart, and we moved across town when my oldest was almost 1, which necessitated a change in pediatrician.\n\nLike i have said previously, I am no clinician. Whether you want to get you kids vaccinated because they get they get mild side effects is up to you. But spreading stories such as vaccine causes autism within hours is bs. \n\n\nI feel that the pesticides used on our foods, the food additives routinely being used, the chemicals found in our lotions, soaps, toothpastes, etc. have changed the chemistry of our blood, possibly changing the way our bodies react to the vaccines, which have not changed, except in the groupings they are currently given in. Many of these chemicals have been found in breast milk, and in blood and tissue samples, some of them have been directly linked to cancer. Not everything we use without thought on a daily basis has been proven safe before being released for sale.\n\nCancer is one thing. Immune system is another thing, What does Autism a developmental disorder that appears in the first 3 years of life, have to do with it?\n\nDo you not know what it used to mean to “bleed” a patient? In olden days Drs used to apply leeches to patients for various reasons, typically declaring the patient had “bad blood” thinking that the leech would remove the bad blood and good blood would take its place. This practice, for obvious reason, is no longer seen as valid. Maybe you should read more, too.\n\nI do not think those voodoo doctors practice medicine in the US. Medical Leeches, on the other hand, are still used in medicine to this day, microsurgery. It helps reduce blood coagulation,\n\nI, too, am no one special, not a health professional, or a scientist. I’m just a stay at home mom with a vast and widely varied professional career behind her and a premed background. I did actually happen to specialize in biology and chemistry, though it’s been too long for me to remember any thing but the basics. I never claimed to have mastered “the whole human body and all it’s chemistry all in one day.” Is that your particular area of mastery? Did you do it in one day?\n\nAs soon as you mentioned voodoo doctors, I did not expect you to be up-to-date on modern medicine. I was a pharmacology major, prior to switching majors. I am no where near “mastering” science, but studying/learning science little by little, seems to be benefit me more than just a little. \n\n“Your ignorance is astounding,” would also be your opinion, only, of me, apparently. But I \nwould like to mention that “invalid fact” is an oxymoron.\n\nYour opinion of me doesn’t bother me. The “invalid ‘facts’ ” phrase, was a figure of speech, much like your claims of autism is a serious joke.

        • Lindsey Bozeman

          I, personally, met the parents of a 5 year old autistic boy, who barely spoke, and was in diapers. That day, I saw video of that same child, potty trained, running and talking a mile a minute, just over 2 years old, taken, they said, 2 days before a vaccination and the onset of symptoms. The story of severe onset of autism symptoms within hours of vaccination is theirs, not mine. It is not a “serious joke,” or even a joke of any kind. I do not know the details of their case, or the clinical facts, just the convictions of the parents, who admittedly were not medical professionals, but who had been awarded a settlement through the Childhood Vaccine Injury Act. And stating that it’s a NO FAULT alternative, which is in one of the first lines of text on the page, as though that means the manufacturers of said vaccines actually had no legal fault in the causation of these cases is very much like claiming that the guy who was caught driving drunk and pled no contest to the charge really WASN’T guilty. \n\nI feel very much like you are taking small points and deliberately misunderstanding them in an attempt to make me feel stupid, or wrong, somehow, and that irks me more than a little bit. My explanation of bleeding was in direct response to your request that I rephrase my statement regarding the fact that the act of bleeding patients is no longer performed on a regular basis for the variety of reasons it once was, and it isn’t. This practice was performed regularly, by barbers who doubled as surgeons as well as actual physicians in the 1800s. It is not a “voodoo” practice, and it WAS practiced in the USA.\n\nI am deeply amused at your insistence that you know better than 2 separate pediatricians directly involved in my children’s care and me, their MOTHER, what is good for my children, as well as by your assumption that I cannot tell the difference between “mild symptoms” and those that are severe. I would not put my children at risk for measles, mumps, rubella, whooping cough, and a variety of other serious, potentially life threatening diseases because of a little nausea, or some mild skin irritation. I know you have already mentioned that you do not have children, but if you hadn’t, it would have become obvious to me after that little quip.\n\nI have stated several times during this thread that I am not “anti-vaccine,” and that I have never encouraged ANYONE to not vaccinate their children for reasons along the lines of “all the cool people are refusing to vaccinate their kids,” or, “that playboy bunny told me not to.”\nAll I have said is the food we eat and the products we use and the drugs we take could very well have altered our systems to the point that they no longer interact the same way with vaccines. And while we know that some of these substances can cause cancer, we do not know all they can do, or how much of it we pass to our children both in the womb and through breast milk, or how they affect the young, still developing physiognomy. \n\nAll I have ever encouraged anyone to do is to watch their children carefully after vaccinations. Mild reactions are normal. If the reactions get increasingly severe, talk to your pediatrician. Yes, my first comment was strongly worded, but it was not directed at you. Did I insult you in some way? (Before you insulted me, of course, after that you were fair game!) Let go of this anger!

          • Humor

            I remember quite well that your argument was , ” Vaccines are not the same as they were when we were children, and there are many other lifestyle factors that have changed as well, such as diet and level of activity. ( You further stated) …”I feel that the pesticides used on our foods, the food additives routinely being used, the chemicals found in our lotions, soaps, toothpastes, etc. have changed the chemistry of our blood, possibly changing the way our bodies react to the vaccines, which have not changed, except in the groupings they are currently given in. Many of these chemicals have been found in breast milk, and in blood and tissue samples, some of them have been directly linked to cancer. Not everything we use without thought on a daily basis has been proven safe before being released for sale…Show me a 3rd person study that is conducted by a reputable research group completely unconnected to big pharm that proves autism is not linked to vaccines, and then I’ll consider the evidence.”\n\nSo far you have YET TO SHOW me ANY PROOFS that CORRELATED VACCINES/EVERYDAY USED CHEMICALS TO AUTISM. All you bring up are ““I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP….I SAW SO-AND-SO, GET SO-AND-SO…because SO-AND-SO did this or that. Until i see any proofs from you, .edu/gov, I am going to end this debate with, you do not know what you are talking about.

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            LOVE your splicing of 2 separate comments together so that they became one, unintelligible poorly written piece of bullshit. You have got to be the densest person I have ever interacted with who has claimed repeatedly to be intelligent. I have seen no evidence of this. You repeatedly demand proof, when I have told you repeatedly in different words that proof doesn’t exist. These studies you are demanding HAVE NOT BEEN DONE!!!!!!! THAT IS MY POINT! I have repeatedly said that I have DOUBTS, and that until my doubts are cleared, I will wait to vaccinate MY children, especially due to the SEVERITY of their VACCINE REACTIONS. This is not a debate, at no point has it ever BEEN a debate. If, when you say that you “will end this debate,” you mean that you will stop baiting me to explain myself with your deliberate mis-takings and ridiculous assertions, then that sounds like a plan!\n\nMy apologies to ZDoggMD. I try to stay above this kind of shit.

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            how’s this?\n\nhttp://www.northeastern.edu/news/stories/2011/01/deth.html

          • Hey guys, I enjoy the discourse mightily. And Lindsey, I have to say I enjoy your presence here; livens the place up and it seems you’re a well-intentioned individual as I’ve mentioned previously. I don’t have many rules for this place, but I thought it might be fun if instead of blatantly cursing, we used a *&%$ approach instead. Seems less crude and slightly funnier to me. For example:\n\n”Thank you Humor and Lindsey for your spirited debate. But, s**t, if it’s one thing I f*%$ing hate it’s lunatics like “Ralph” pulling bulls*&t accusations out of his a**. He is clearly a *&^% conspiracy theorist who would impugn the integrity of highly trained, well-meaning healthcare professionals. Since he hates doctors so much, if he ever shows up with appendicitis in my ER, he can go f*$k himself in the a$$.”\n\nThat example was entirely hypothetical of course!

          • Lindsey Bozeman

            Oh, ok, sorry. I do have a bit of a potty mouth, and will refrain from indulging it in the future. The colorful hypothetical example was very helpful…I hope you don’t stop treating individuals named Ralph on general principle. Maybe we should make up a mandatory questionnaire for potential patient by the name of Ralph…

    • Lindsey Bozeman

      “And FYI, before a vaccine is given to the mass public, it is usually tested out extensively in clinical trials and scrutinized by the medical and scientific communities, prior to its release.”\n\nThat can be responded to with a flat out, resounding no they’re not!! How much testing was done regarding the H1N1 vaccination? What makes you think this is the only example?\nhttp://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5237185n\n\nWhat about many other drugs that have been released for distribution, only to be recalled after numerous deaths, heart conditions, horrible side effects, etc? You’re right, our system for testing drugs before release must be perfect!

      • Doc Quixote

        Ironically, I agree with you about H1N1, which was a total crock of shit. Frankly, I suspect that someone stood to benefit financially from the whole swine-flu thing. I have never seen a vaccine produced so fast or with so little testing, and for such a non-disease! Actually, I had the honor of serving with the United States Army in Iraq during the height of the whole swine flu thing, and we were ORDERED to get the H1N1 shot weeks after it came out, which was only months after anywone had even heard of swine flu…I said to medic as he was injecting me “have they even tested this vaccine?” and he said (honestly) “we’re testing it right now.” That’s a true story! Maybe western medicine does suck! Which side am I on again?

        • Lindsey Bozeman

          LOL! I thank you for your service, sir, and for your brief stint as a medical test subject!

      • Doctor Big

        Okay LinDsey,\nyou are correct that vaccines are not what they were when we were kids. \nWhen I was a kid I was vaccinated with the DTP, MMR and polio. \nToday’s children are vaccinated for Hepatitis A & B, polio, HiB, DTaP, pneumococcus, MMR, rotavirus, chicken pox, HPV and flu (forgive me if I forgot to mention anyone).\nThe number of needles is more. What is in them is less. With a PhD in molecular biology I tend to think about what is really in things. If you total up the different things in the “old” vaccines it was roughly 3,200 different proteins and polysaccharides our immune systems had to respond to. If you then total the “new” vaccines that we are overwhelming children with the total is 156 (plus or minus a couple depending on which preparation).\nCan you explain to me how 156 is MORE overwhelming and harmful than 3,200?\n\nAs for the lights going out stories. I can tell you my dad had his heart attack just hours after eating two bananas (he normally only eats one). It must have been the high dose of potassium that triggered the heart attack. I will be organizing an anti-banana march on Washington to protect others from a similar fate. In all seriousness, I care for many children with autism (along with 12 other pediatricians in our group). Some have been practicing for as much as 40 years. If you want anecdotes I can tell you that our combined practice years none has ever seen a child who suddenly decompensated after a vaccine. I know that does not mean it could not happen, but I hear those stories so often on Age of Autism and other sites, but in talking to those caring for the children I haven’t yet met a pediatrician who saw it. What we have all seen are kids with problems worsen over time. Also the younger sibling (unvaccinated) of an autistic child that was supposedly harmed by the vaccines, follows the same clinical progression. One event may follow another but that does not mean it is cause and effect.

        • Lindsey Bozeman

          I don’t know if it’s the number of ingredients, or the way they combine, or the levels of certain chemicals in them, but I’m definitely no molecular biologist! Also, let me know about the anti-banana march, I may be a little far out of the area but might have friends willing to join the cause… 😉 kidding. I wish that I had kept in touch with the family I have been referencing. I can only tell you what I remember from the short time I knew them before they moved away. I do remember that they said that the change happened to their little boy “overnight.” But once again, this is 3rd party information, and kind of smacks of “a friend of a friend’s boyfriend’s cousin told me…” I did obtain the story 1st hand, though. Not that that helps… Thanks again for your well written, informative responses.

  • Marilyn

    So much to respond to here… \n\n1. Fetuses can get measles even if their moms were vaccinated as kids; immunity tends to wane in one’s early 20’s. This is why sone docs check their patient’s titers (measures of antibody response) before they plan to get pregnant, especially if the area has an outbreak of measles.\n2. H1n1 is NOT “a crock of shit!!!”. this past year alone I personally took care of many H1N1 cases and a few died. Thankfully, fewer died this year compared to last. Due to vaccine or better care? Probably both; a lot was learned about techniques of cari g for these patients during the first year.\n3. People do NOT get the flu from flu vaccines. This has been proven over and over. If you got the flu right after a vaccine, you were already infected at the time of inoculation.\n4.

    • Lindsey Bozeman

      Thank you for the information in section 1, I was not aware that immunity tends to wane. In section 2, ok, maybe H1N1 isn’t a TOTAL crock of shit, but, from my uneducated viewpoint, it definitely does not seem to have hit the level of scariness as a disease that we were warned about. It also seemed like the majority of the deaths reported as being caused by H1N1 were of those with somewhat suppressed immune systems already, like the elderly or the very young, compounded by a lack of understanding of the particular set of symptoms and when to seek medical care. I actually once knew a young man who had called in sick to work with the flu for several days only to be found dead in his room by his mother, who had come to take him to his Dr’s appt. He had one leg in his pants, as though he had tried to dress himself before she got there. The flu itself can kill, and does with far more regularity than H1N1, but for some reason, the CDC never calls flu season a “global pandemic!”\n\nSection 3- I have often been told by the doctor who ordered me to get the shot, as well as by the technician administering it, that I might get a mild case of the flu a few days after getting the shot, and my symptoms came on about 4 days after receiving the shot, so my jury’s still out on that one. Can we agree to disagree, as long as I promise to refrain from telling people not to get flu shots?\n\nI can’t help but feel like your reply was cut short, and am very interested in what I would have learned from the rest of it. Thank you for taking the time to teach me my something new today! I really appreciate the informed reply. (I feel like this last paragraph is reading very sarcastically, and am very sorry for that, as it was not my intention. Tone is so hard to master online!)

      • Heather

        Lindsey – \nThey probably meant that you might experience flu like symptoms. Your immune system is still making a response to the antigen that was injected – some people feel a bit lousy. \n\nJust a thought.

  • Ralph

    “Lindsey, sorry, was burping my newborn and she poo’d on me a little. Used to that, sadly.”\n\nCrap in, crap out!\n\nCouldn’t happen to a nicer guy!

    • Hilarious! So funny “Ralph!” A great example of your furious intellect and profound wit! And ANOTHER great example of the depth of knowledge and profound wisdom you bring to this discussion. Comedic and scientific genius, I wanna thank you SO much for contributing here. I think many have been swayed by your logical and methodical defense of your viewpoints on vaccine denialism and medico-corporate greed. A scholar and a gentleman, you! Toxic crap indeed! Aborted fetal tissue! To arms, everyone! Crap in and crap out indeed.\n\nClearly you also believe that breast milk is crap, as that is what we feed our newborn. Insulting me is fun and games for all, but attacking my newborn and my wife’s breastmilk is grounds for being banned from this place. \n\nBye bye, douche.

  • Doctor Big

    For those interested in reading the Institute of Medicine’s report on vaccine side effects it can be downloaded free at http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2011/Adverse-Effects-of-Vaccines-Evidence-and-Causality.aspx. It is just over 600 pages and full of suspense and intrigue. Honestly they have thoroughly investigated many effects I had never heard of, some likely real and some not. Worth a peek for normal people (since I am not normal I am reading it all – yipee!)

    • SCIENCE! I love it. Thanks for posting.

  • andrea

    Lindsay writes: “Have you ever spoken to a parent that has watched the lights in their child’s eyes go out less that 6 hours after a vaccination?”\n\nNope. But my step-cousin, age 23 and in Eau Claire, Wisconsin, is dying of cancer that started out as cervical cancer (she didn’t have consistent medical care due to homelessness, which was caused by mental health issues caused by childhood maltreatment). She is going to leave behind two little kids, one of which is presently age 3 and the other of which is presently age 1. The lights in those little kiddies’ eyes are certainly going to go out when their mother dies and leaves them orphaned before they even start kindergarten.\n\nHer current terminal illness, and her anticipated death, could have been prevented by vaccination for HPV. Let me tell you, I nagged the hell out of my son to get his arse into the doctor to get the vaccine when I heard about its availability for males. He has now had 2 of 3 shots, with every intention of getting the 3rd, and now he won’t be passing that death sentence onto any young lady (though I still hope he uses condoms to avoid other STDs).\n\nAnd again, Lindsay writes: “Have you ever spoken to a parent that has watched the lights in their child’s eyes go out less that 6 hours after a vaccination?” I do lots of genealogy, and also look at death records while researching my ancestors and their families. The lights permanently went out in the eyes of the young siblings of numerous of my ancestors, when they died due to pneumonia, measles, polio, smallpox, whooping cough, and other diseases that are now fully preventable by a quick jab in the leg.\n\nMy 3 kids were all vaccinated, none have autism (despite our family’s strong tendency toward psychiatric problems), and I can expect them to consequently live good, long, healthy lives.\n\nAutism my arse.

  • wonderful put up, very informative. I wonder why \nthe other experts of this sector don’t understand this. You should continue your writing. I am confident, you have a huge readers’ \nbase already!

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